Author Topic: Not easy to translate/understand sentences  (Read 5707 times)

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Offline Blue Elf

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Not easy to translate/understand sentences
« on: June 16, 2014, 02:34:22 pm »
This thread is dedicated to sentences - both in English/Na'vi, which are not easy to translate into second language/understand. Goal is to help beginners to see how to translate/understand sentences, where we are missing words, language constructions etc.
Just post your sentence (and if you want, also your attempt to translate), more experienced people try to deal with them :)

I found my first candidate in Elfenlicht (Winter of the Elves) by Bernhard Hennen, chapter Last words:
Who searches for truth, incurs the danger of finding/ that he'll find something he didn't want to know at all
(translated from Czech version: Kdo hledá pravdu, vystavuje se nebezpečí, že zjistí něco, co vůbec nechtěl vědět.)

We are missing phrase "to incur the danger", but doesn't it mean we can't translate this interesting and wise statement? Really no, with some rewording it isn't so hard. We can say things like "Fìkem alu X lu lehrrap" -> Action by other words X is dangerous (Action of X is dangerous)
"Fwa fkol run tìngayit lu lehrrap" -> It's dangerous that one searches truth (lit. That one searches truth is dangerous).
Other parts are quite easy to translates, so what can be final results?

Suteri a fwew tìngayit fketok hrrap a pol rayun 'uot a ke nolew ivomum kaw'it.
Regarding person which searches truth there's danger that (which is that) he'll find something he didn't want to know at all.

Fwa fkol fwew tìngayit lu lehrrap taluna tsun rivun 'uot a ke nolew ivomum kaw'it.
That one searches truth is dangerous because can find something he didn't want to know at all.

I don't want to go into grammar, just to show how hard statement can be simplified to be translatable, but if you have any question, simply ask. Now you can think about other not-easy sentences :)
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
"Oe tasyätxaw ulte koren za'u oehu" (Limonádový Joe)


Offline Tìtstewan

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Re: Not easy to translate/understand sentences
« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2014, 04:01:40 pm »
So, a thread to show how one could translate sentences from language A to B?

Well, I have one, I wanted to translate, but there are some little problems...and it is difficult, but not impossible.

EN: And he piled upon the whale's white hump, the sum of all the rage and hate felt by his whole race. If his chest had been a cannon, he would have shot his heart upon it.
DE: Und er bürdete dem Buckel des weißen Wals die Summe der Wut und des Hasses der ganzen Menschheit auf. Wäre sein Leib eine Kanone, er hätte sein Herz auf ihn geschossen.
[Star Trek; Captain Jean-Luc Picard quoting: "Moby Dick"]


Ulte poanìl yamem payoangä txalsìn ateyr fratìve'kìt sì fratìkawngit a 'olefu 'änsyema pongu. Zun peyä tokx lilvu tsko, zel poanìl sneyä txe’lanur teykilvoltem pot.
And he placed on the white back of the water animal all the hatred and all the evil which the whole group of people felt. If his body had been a bow, he would have caused his heart to shoot it.

whale -> fish, water animal (payoang)
cannon -> bow (tsko)

[corrections are welcome :)]
« Last Edit: June 16, 2014, 06:02:51 pm by Tìtstewan »

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Offline Plumps

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Re: Not easy to translate/understand sentences
« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2014, 05:23:49 pm »
Tewti:o are you sure this thread is in the right section?  8) Looks like this could get complicated rather quickly…

EN: And he piled upon the whale's white hump, the sum of all the rage and hate felt by his whole race. If his chest had been a cannon, he would have shot his heart upon it.
DE: Und er bürdete dem Buckel des weißen Wals die Summe der Wut und des Hasses der ganzen Menschheit auf. Wäre sein Leib eine Kanone, er hätte sein Herz auf ihn geschossen.
[Star Trek; Captain Jean-Luc Picard quoting: "Moby Dick"]


Ulte poanìl stamarsìm payoangä txalur ateyr fratìve'kìt sì fratìkawngit a 'olefu 'änsyema pongu. Zel peyä tokx lilvu tsko, zun peyä txe'lan tilvem por.
And he collected to the white back of the water animal all the hatred and all the evil which the whole group of people felt. If his body had been a bow, his heart would have shot him.

First off, great scene!  8)

Maybe instead of starsìm, yem could suffice ???
txalur seems odd to me. Either txalsìn or txalne.

zun and zel need to be switched ;)
Just a little suggestion… “he would have shot his heart upon it” (er hätte sein Herz auf ihn geschossen). I’d translate that as
     … zel (poanìl) (sneyä) txe’lanur teykilvoltem pot
     (… zel (pan-ìl) (sne-yä) txe’lan-ur t‹eyk›‹i‹l›v›oltem po-t)
     “… he would have caused his heart to shoot it (the whale).”


Offline Tìtstewan

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Re: Not easy to translate/understand sentences
« Reply #3 on: June 16, 2014, 06:00:48 pm »
Tewti,  :o are you sure this thread is in the right section?  8) Looks like this could get complicated rather quickly…
I also thought that as I saw this thread. But it would show the beginners, that difficult sentences are - in some ways - possible to translate. Of course, this wouldn't look "beginner friendly", but I think, they should know about this stuff too. If we would move this thread to the /Intermediate or /Sentences, rather a very few number of beginners would see that. This whole stuff is also interesting, imo. :) (I would also make this thread sticky. :))


First off, great scene!  8)
Yay! :D


Maybe instead of starsìm, yem could suffice ???
txalur seems odd to me. Either txalsìn or txalne.
Usually, it's the dative case there, but I like the idea with txalsìn, especially in combination with yem. :) I'm going to add it!



zun and zel need to be switched ;)
Just a little suggestion… “he would have shot his heart upon it” (er hätte sein Herz auf ihn geschossen). I’d translate that as
     … zel (poanìl) (sneyä) txe’lanur teykilvoltem pot
     (… zel (pan-ìl) (sne-yä) txe’lan-ur t‹eyk›‹i‹l›v›oltem po-t)
     “… he would have caused his heart to shoot it (the whale).”
Argh... Oe lu kakrela skxawng... Now that with the wrong placed zun/zel is embarrassing. :-[ (fixed)
As for the suggestion, added! :D
« Last Edit: June 17, 2014, 06:04:57 am by Tìtstewan »

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Offline `Eylan Ayfalulukanä

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Re: Not easy to translate/understand sentences
« Reply #4 on: June 17, 2014, 12:04:28 am »
Great idea, but I think as well, it might belong in intermediate.

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Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: Not easy to translate/understand sentences
« Reply #5 on: June 17, 2014, 08:55:48 am »
Yeah, I think I agree this topic might fit better in intermediate. Of course we all see how beginners like to translate great works of literature into Na'vi and run into things that are nearly impossible to translate, but either way, it ends up being complicated. The beginners section, as I imagine it,  contains more simple rudimentary topics to get them started. Then can move on to Intermediate.

(However I do understand the sentiment that Beginners boards, especially the main one, get /way/ more views than Intermediate and think that's unfortunate)

But I do like the idea of this thread. I think we have needed something like this for a long time. A single place that aims to teach people how to think more Na'vi in order to circumvent horrific English sentences. Little tips here and there on different ways to think about and word sentences in order  to make them translatable. This is crucial to being fluent. If one cannot learn to twist sentences around in order to fit the set of sentences translatable into Na'vi, one will likely stand there at a loss for words when in conversations. I think I can see many threads being born out of this one in the future.

Still considering which board this thread belongs in and if it's worth a sticky. EDIT: I'm thinking a sticky in /sentence-analysis. Thoughts?
« Last Edit: June 17, 2014, 08:59:14 am by Tirea Aean »

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Offline Tìtstewan

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Re: Not easy to translate/understand sentences
« Reply #6 on: June 17, 2014, 09:03:51 am »
EDIT: I'm thinking a sticky in /sentence-analysis. Thoughts?
Fì'u. :)

EDIT: What is about /advance grammar?
« Last Edit: June 17, 2014, 09:08:03 am by Tìtstewan »

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Re: Not easy to translate/understand sentences
« Reply #7 on: June 17, 2014, 03:32:59 pm »
If it proves to be popular, we can later consider moving it to the main section of the intermediate forum.

But now, time to think of some really knotty sentences....

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Offline Blue Elf

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Re: Not easy to translate/understand sentences
« Reply #8 on: June 19, 2014, 12:46:29 pm »
Still considering which board this thread belongs in and if it's worth a sticky. EDIT: I'm thinking a sticky in /sentence-analysis. Thoughts?
No problem for me. Original idea was to show beginners how to overcame limitations of Na'vi (without speaking about grammar) here, as I think they do not use "higher level" language subboards. I mods feel it is better to move it elsewhere, I respect this decision.
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
"Oe tasyätxaw ulte koren za'u oehu" (Limonádový Joe)


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Re: Not easy to translate/understand sentences
« Reply #9 on: June 19, 2014, 02:16:39 pm »
Maybe what we could do is in /beginners, make a thread containing the steps and tips of how to get around some common complex/untranslatable structures of English. For example, Something was found -> 'uoti fkol rolun. All the while, very much limiting use of technical linguist jargon. Then when they want to have something looked at, send them here to post it.

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Re: Not easy to translate/understand sentences
« Reply #10 on: August 21, 2014, 09:58:13 am »
*ressurect this thread*

EN: Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives, but I'd rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment... because they'll never come again.
DE: Jemand hat mir mal gesagt, die Zeit würde uns wie ein Raubtier ein Leben lang verfolgen. Ich möchte viel lieber glauben, dass die Zeit unser Gefährte ist, der uns auf unserer Reise begleitet und uns daran erinnert, jeden Moment zu genießen. Denn er wird nicht wieder kommen.
[Quote by Picard, ST Generations]

Tuteo 'awlie poleng oer san krr lu taronyu a fewi awngat sìk, slä oel spaw nìtxan futa krr lu awngeyä tsmukan a kä awngahu tìsopmì ulte zerok awngat frakrr fte sivunu fraswaw taluna sa'u ke tayätxaw nìmun.
Lit.: Someone once told me that time was a hunter that chase us, but rather I believe that time is our brother that goes with us on the journey and always remind us to like every moment because they will not come back.

Yeah, there is missing one or two words...like enjoy, cherish, companion...
« Last Edit: August 22, 2014, 06:29:02 am by Tìtstewan »

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Re: Not easy to translate/understand sentences
« Reply #11 on: August 21, 2014, 10:44:28 am »
Sìltsana tìkangkem.

Tuteol 'awlie poleng oer futa fmawnta/san krr l(ol)u taronyu a fewi awngat (sìk), slä ki oel spaw nìtxan futa krr lu awngeyä tsmukan a kä / käteng?? awngahu tìsopmì ulte zerok awngat frakrr fte sivunu fraswaw taluna fo sa’u ke nivew tivätxaw nìmun.

Remember that reported speech uses other words to introduce the spoken words. Direct speech is prefered, so why not use san/sìk?
ki is only used when there was a negated statement in the sentence before (German: „nicht … sondern …“). Maybe a tsalsungay or ngian could be added.

I think, “they” doesn’t refer to people but rather the moments, so inanimate objects, thus (ay)sa’u.

Why new in the last part? ke tayätxaw nìmun does the trick, tì’efumì oeyä.

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Re: Not easy to translate/understand sentences
« Reply #12 on: August 21, 2014, 11:08:07 am »
I see what I did there. :o

My common mistake: forget fmawnta in reported speech but I used san/sìk. As for ki, oops, I confused it with slä as there was writen "...but rather..."
Argh, how do I forgot (t)sa'u? :o

As for "why new in the last sentence?", taluna oe lu skxawng...zeykolo tsat.

+1 for let me know my stupidity. :)

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Re: Not easy to translate/understand sentences
« Reply #13 on: August 21, 2014, 11:26:25 am »
My version:
Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives, but I'd rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment... because they'll never come again.
Tuteol 'awlie oeru poleng fmawnta krr lu taronyu a frakrr fewi awngat, slä oel spaw futa krr lu 'eylan a sutx awngat tìsopmì fte siveykunu fraswaw1 taluna fay'u ke len melo.

1 To be verified.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2014, 11:59:19 am by Vawmataw »

Offline Plumps

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Re: Not easy to translate/understand sentences
« Reply #14 on: August 21, 2014, 12:51:10 pm »
… taluna oe lu skxawng...zeykolo tsat.

+1 for let me know my stupidity. :)

Irayo, slä … Tsaylì’ut rä’ä plltxe, rutxe! Fratuter a fmi ralpiveng ep’anga aysäfpìlti leioae apxa frato seiyi oe nìtxan!

Thank you, but … Don’t say that, please! Everyone who tries to translate complex ideas deserves the greatest respect!




My version:
Tuteol 'awlie oeru poleng fmawnta krr lu taronyu a frakrr fewi awngat, slä oel spaw futa krr lu 'eylan a sutx awngat tìsopmìfte seykivunu fraswawti taluna fayu ke len melo.

Although I’m a bit hesitant to use len with ’u. I understand len only to be applied to ‘actions’, thus kem ;)

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Re: Not easy to translate/understand sentences
« Reply #15 on: August 21, 2014, 01:06:02 pm »
Although I’m a bit hesitant to use len with ’u. I understand len only to be applied to ‘actions’, thus kem ;)
Only to actions?
A moment can happen (well, in English, it does, but in Na'vi?). I propose to use ''fayswaw'' (if you find a substitute word, please tell me that).

Btw, thanks for the correction. I was not sure.

Quote from: myself
Tuteol 'awlie oeru poleng fmawnta krr lu taronyu a frakrr fewi awngat, slä oel spaw futa krr lu 'eylan a sutx awngat tìsopmì fte seykivunu fraswawit taluna fayswaw ke len melo.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2014, 01:14:53 pm by Vawmataw »

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Re: Not easy to translate/understand sentences
« Reply #16 on: August 21, 2014, 01:08:44 pm »
Irayo!
I'm just surprised to see what I did. :o

...fayu...
Eltur tìtxen si. :)

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Re: Not easy to translate/understand sentences
« Reply #18 on: August 21, 2014, 01:15:22 pm »

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Re: Not easy to translate/understand sentences
« Reply #19 on: August 21, 2014, 01:21:48 pm »
Because "usually" it is ayfì'u, but:
http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/concerning-time-words-and-fimeu/
I think it depends on the root word. fayu = 'u, ayfì'u = fì'u

 

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