Author Topic: Tsam ayhifkeyä  (Read 1153 times)

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Offline Eight

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Tsam ayhifkeyä
« on: February 15, 2010, 04:14:41 am »
Been busy this past month so not had much time for Na'vi. Figured I'd try and get back into it all with a bit of a translation project. Curious to know what anyone thinks of this opening paragraph.

Tsam ayhifkeyä - 1. a krr eo tsam

Kawtul sparmaw futa aylapol, a lamu nì’ul ayronsem atxan, kifkeyit narmìn; futa tutel foyä sìreyit aletrr rarmey tengkrr aylapo fot starmeftxaw, tengfya fkol ngawngit steftxaw. Nìmawey fo samaleu kifkeyka, mawey foyä korenä tìlawfa em kifkey. Lu letsunslu futa ngawngil teng livu. Kawtul fparmìl futa layhifkey lehrapp livu, fu fol fparmìl futa tìrey kip faykifkey letsunslu ke livu. Lam kiyìk set txo ayoengil foyä ayronsemit steftxaw.


Edit: Added spoiler with my intended meaning in.

Edit2: Why is it always easier to spot mistakes AFTER you post something to the internet ???
« Last Edit: February 15, 2010, 04:23:02 am by Eight »

Offline Plumps

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Re: Tsam ayhifkeyä
« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2010, 05:08:38 am »
Tsam ayhifkeyä - 1. a krr eo tsam

Kawtul sparmaw futa aylapol, a lamu nì’ul ayronsem atxan, kifkeyit narmìn; futa tutel foyä sìreyit aletrr rarmey tengkrr aylapo fot starmeftxaw, tengfya fkol ngawngit steftxaw. Nìmawey fo samaleu kifkeyka, mawey foyä korenä tìlawfa em kifkey. Lu letsunslu futa ngawngil teng livu. Kawtul fparmìl futa layhifkey lehrapp livu, fu fol fparmìl futa tìrey kip faykifkey letsunslu ke livu. Lam kiyìk set txo ayoengil foyä ayronsemit steftxaw.

Ma Eight,

I've never read it but now I'm curious :)
A few things I've noticed.
I don't think you need a when you want to say "a time" - krr is enough. a krr would be "when"
"their" has the special form feyä, pretty much like ngeyä
The a- before letrr is not necessary, only if it were reversed (letrra sìreyit)
I don't think Frommer used koren in the sense of "the rule of a king" but more in the sense of "guideline, grammatical rule"
Minor typo with *lehrapp > lehrrap
"these worlds" should be fayhifkey

Otherwise it's great work :) I can't wait for more ;)


PS: Just a question for conformation: is eo really used for time? Taronyu doesn't state it specifically but I always thought it was for places only...

Offline Eight

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Re: Tsam ayhifkeyä
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2010, 05:53:07 am »
I've never read it but now I'm curious :)
Me neither. Lol. :D

Quote
I don't think you need a when you want to say "a time" - krr is enough.
You're probably right actually - thinking about it know, "a krr" is probably only "when" as a relativisor.

So many sloppy mistakes there - thank you for spotting them. Some bits of Na'vi seem to have stuck in my head and others are a little lacking... although dropping the a- when an adjective follows a noun is something I never seemed to remember even before taking a few weeks off. :)

Re: koren / eo
I suspect they're wrong... but figured they were close enough. Although koren as "guideline" etc. would make it completely out of sync with what I was trying to say so better adjust that.

Cheers mate.

Offline Nawmaritie

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Re: Tsam ayhifkeyä
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2010, 06:02:47 am »
Been busy this past month so not had much time for Na'vi. Figured I'd try and get back into it all with a bit of a translation project. Curious to know what anyone thinks of this opening paragraph.

Tsam ayhifkeyä - 1. a krr eo tsam

Kawtul sparmaw futa aylapol, a lamu nì’ul ayronsem atxan, kifkeyit narmìn; futa tutel foyä sìreyit aletrr rarmey tengkrr aylapo-l fot starmeftxaw, tengfya fkol ngawngit steftxaw. Nìmawey fo samaleu kifkeyka, mawey foyä korenä tìlawfa em kifkey. Lu letsunslu futa ngawngil teng livu. Kawtul fparmìl futa layhifkey lehrapp livu, fu fol fparmìl futa tìrey kip faykifkey letsunslu ke livu. Lam kiyìk set txo ayoengil foyä ayronsemit steftxaw.


Edit: Added spoiler with my intended meaning in.

Edit2: Why is it always easier to spot mistakes AFTER you post something to the internet ???

Kaltkxì ma Eight :)

this text is awesome, I almost didn't want to spot anything.
and won't go into what Plumps83 already said (yes, it took me that long to type and damn, I didn't even spot most of that O.O )
Short explanation to the colors above:
red is where I think, that it's gramatically not correct (green is just one added ERG.-marker)
purple, where I'm not sure whether it would be better to rephrase it or use a different word


lamu nì’ul ayronsem atxan
no mistake here, but perhaps it's a bit easier to understand with the comparative marker nul–: -> nultxan - greater

aylapo-l
There is an extra form for the plural of la-: lay-
and (this is more of a question of myself, I think): what should be used here? lapo or lahe ?

Nìmawey fo samaleu kifkeyka, mawey foyä korenä tìlawfa em kifkey.
Again, nothing wrong with the "sentence" (no verb) per se, but I would rephrase it for better understanding:
They were calm, because of their certainty that they rule over the worlf
And I'm not sure about the use of "em" here ... maybe "they rule the world could be enough


Lu letsunslu futa ngawngil teng livu

futa = fì'ut a, so it's the accusative case, here should the nominative case be used: fwa = fì'u a
in the second half of the sentence the ERG-marker is not necessary
teng I'm not sure whether this word can be used like you did, becaue it is noted as an adposition, so in this case it refers to ngawng and would make it "same as worm" or "like worm
I would use here *wong: sameness, the same   while it is noted as "not sure", you wouldn't have to change anything else.

txo (last sentence)
Just a question, is here the meaning of "if" or "when" intended ?


Quote
Edit2: Why is it always easier to spot mistakes AFTER you post something to the internet ??

Yeah, I'm wondering about that, too. I think the only posts that I don't edit at least twice are the ones in the off-topic section -.-'

« Last Edit: February 15, 2010, 06:07:48 am by Nawmaritie »
ke'u tsatìfkeyuyä hapxìmungwrr
a frakrr tìkawngit neiew mivunge
slä tìsìltsanit ngop nì'aw frakrr

Na'vi-Deutsch Wörterbuch
Deutsch-Na'vi Wörterbuch

Offline Eight

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Re: Tsam ayhifkeyä
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2010, 06:11:07 am »
no mistake here, but perhaps it's a bit easier to understand with the comparative marker nul–: -> nultxan - greater
Jeepers - I didn't even know nultxan existed. :D Cheers fella.

I appreciate the other comments - some of which really indicate that I need to slow down a bit when attempting these sorts of translations. Some great catches there!

Quote
txo (last sentence)
Just a question, is here the meaning of "if" or "when" intended ?
To me, either works. "When" would imply that we do analyse "their" thinking and it would seem strange; and "if" would suggest we might not think about their attitudes etc. but if we did, then it would seem strange.

Offline Lance R. Casey

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Re: Tsam ayhifkeyä
« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2010, 06:20:23 am »
Apart from Plumps83's points, I have these (some of which overlap with what was posted while I was typing :)):

  • The first sentence reads to me like this:

    "no one was believing that were-more-great-minds others were watching the world"

    I'm assuming you tried for a relative clause as per "who had greater minds", and since we don't have the verb "have", lu is required. However, something else that is required is the dative, and I don't quite see how to fit that in together with the subordinator. Perhaps something like aylapol a lamu foru X? Or, to work around the problem, this may be one of the rare instances when both hu and fa could fit the bill, depending on what you'd like to convey.

  • Missing ergative on aylapo in the second sentence, and I think the subjunctive is warranted in the final steftxaw there ("one might examine a worm").

  • If saleu is the correct form (remember *neu -> new), the TAM infixes should go before the e, since that is the nucleus of the penultimate syllable. The second part of this sentence has a distinct direct-translation feel. Suggestion:

    Foru law lamu fwa tsivun kifkeyur fyawivìntxu nìwotx, ha fo lamu mawey.
    3PL-DAT clear be<PST> that can<SBJV> world-DAT guide<SBJV> all so they be<PST> calm
    It was clear to them that they could guide all the world, so they were calm.

  • In the next sentence there is an argument mismatch; this is a job for fwa:

    Letsunslu lu fwa ngawng teng livu

    Also note that in predicative situations, the subject is not in the ergative.

  • "Strange" is hiyìk, and the long ergative suffix is -ìl; also I think that txo calls for the subjunctive.


// Lance R. Casey

Offline Eight

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Re: Tsam ayhifkeyä
« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2010, 07:02:46 am »
Cheers Lance,

Yup, I got the first sentence quite wrong. Didn't even think about - on the plus side, I was obviously subconciously going for the dative construct... but forgot the actual dative part. :)

Maybe:
Kawtul sparmaw futa laypol, a lamu foru ayronsem nultxan, kifkeyit narmìn.
Noone believed that people (who had greater minds), looked at the world.

The second part of this sentence has a distinct direct-translation feel. Suggestion:

Foru law lamu fwa tsivun kifkeyur fyawivìntxu nìwotx, ha fo lamu mawey.
3PL-DAT clear be<PST> that can<SBJV> world-DAT guide<SBJV> all so they be<PST> calm
It was clear to them that they could guide all the world, so they were calm.
It's a toughie - the original line is

With infinite complacency men went to and fro over this globe about their little affairs, serene in their assurance of their empire over matter.

Quote
Letsunslu lu fwa ngawng teng livu
Also note that in predicative situations, the subject is not in the ergative.
That was a typo I think. I think started saying something else, changed it, and missed removing the suffix.

Good spot on -ìl - I think I've been getting that wrong since day one. Ack.

Offline Eight

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Re: Tsam ayhifkeyä
« Reply #7 on: February 15, 2010, 07:08:58 am »
"Strange" is hiyìk, and the long ergative suffix is -ìl; also I think that txo calls for the subjunctive.
Lam hiyìk set txo ayoengìl feyä ayronsemit stiveftxaw.

?

Sometimes these infix positions drive me crazy.

Offline Eight

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Re: Tsam ayhifkeyä
« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2010, 07:51:26 am »
Ok. Few (lots of) revisions and I think I caught everyone's suggestions.

Plus added a little bit more - which a real test of my [very] basic knowledge of the subjunctive was. This bit might also have loads and loads of mistakes, so I don't except the in-depth feedback that you've all been so kind to offer up so far.

Kawtul sparmaw futa laypol, a lamu foru ayronsem nultxan, kifkeyit narmìn; futa tutel feyä sìreyit aletrr rarmey tengkrr laypol fot starmeftxaw, tengfya fkol ngawngit steftxaw. Nìmawey fo salameu kifkeyka, mawey taluna foru law lamu fwa tsivun kifkeyur fyawivìntxu nìwotx. Lu letsunslu fwa ngawng wong livu. Kawtul fparmìl futa layhifkey lehrrap livu, fu fol fparmìl futa tìrey kip fayhifkey letsunslu ke livu. Lam hiyìk set txo ayoengìl feyä ayronsemit stiveftxaw.
   
Sutel fparmìl futa kxawm mì Masì* rimvey laypo, a sìlronsem ke limvu, ulte alaksì limvu txo kewonga frrtu pivähem. Slä alìm, ayronsem fkeu sì kemuiä, a kame ayoengä ayronsemit na ngawngä, narmìn fikifkeyit fa aynari kawng ulte ftxamey a fya ayfo ‘ekivo namew.

Spoiler for the last bit

Edit: Hmm... is there no preposition "on"???

Edit2: Forgot a sentence - although I think the use of a "a fya" is dubious.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2010, 09:18:12 am by Eight »

Offline Lance R. Casey

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Re: Tsam ayhifkeyä
« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2010, 09:21:39 am »
First, some things I missed last time around:

1) Negative concord! Kawtul ke sparmaw, etc.

2) Since *lay- is from la- and ay-, there should be lenition: layfol

3) While getting -ìl right is indeed something to strive for, in this particular instance it is not required. Oeng is oe+nga, and when inflected the elided vowel reappears, so the ergative inclusive "we" is ayoengal.

And, I feel the need for a copula with "calm": [...] mawey lamu taluna [...]

Now, colors! :D

Sutel fparmìl futa kxawm mì Masì* rimvey laypo, a sìlronsem ke limvu, ulte alaksì limvu txo kewonga frrtu pivähem. Slä alìm, ayronsem fkeukemuiä, a kame ayoengä ayronsemit na ngawngä, narmìn fikifkeyit fa aynari kawng.

Lenition as per above.
This word is defined as "clever (thing)", which seems to imply that it is not used about persons. How about txantslusam?
Missing plural.
This word may be an adjective, but we also have mìso away (in the distance) which seems adverbial to me.
Missing attributive marker.
Fì-
Or menari?

As for the penultimate clause:
a kame ayoengä ayronsemit na ngawngä

First, ayoeng + -yä > ayoengeyä.
Second, I don't think kame, with its connotations, is the word to use here. In fact, I don't know if we can/should translate "see" at all in the sense needed. How about:

a fpìl futa ayoengeyä ayronsem lu na ngawngä

(The "predicative genitive" is attested in Fìtsenge... awngeyä!, albeit with the pause.)

// Lance R. Casey

Offline Eight

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Re: Tsam ayhifkeyä
« Reply #10 on: February 15, 2010, 09:28:41 am »
First, some things I missed last time around:
Good grief... :D How can there be more mistakes than words. ;)

1) Goddamn! I'm a skxawng sometimes.

2) See 1.

Couldn't spell txantslusam...

Quote
Or menari?
Lots of eyes watching us. ;)

Quote
Second, I don't think kame, with its connotations, is the word to use here. In fact, I don't know if we can/should translate "see" at all in the sense needed.
Hmm... yeah you're right actually. If they saw us in the same way Neytiri sees Jake then there'd be nothing to worry about. :)

Cheers mate. You're a star.

Offline Eight

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Re: Tsam ayhifkeyä
« Reply #11 on: February 15, 2010, 09:31:10 am »
Need to check on the rules for a-, don't quite get when it can be dropped and when not at this point.

Offline Lance R. Casey

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Re: Tsam ayhifkeyä
« Reply #12 on: February 15, 2010, 09:34:15 am »
ulte ftxamey a fya ayfo ‘ekivo namew.

It may not be as dubious as you think -- at least not if you use the full (attested) form fya'o, like Frommer did:

tsakrr paye'un sweya fya'ot a zamivunge oel ayngar aylì'ut horentisì lì'fyayä leNa'vi
I will then decide the best way to bring you the words and rules of Na'vi

Also note that in 'eko, the first infix position is after the glottal stop, so the subjunctive is 'iveko.

Slightly tenuous suggestion:

ulte ftxamey fya'ot a namew ayfol fte 'iveko (awngat(i))

// Lance R. Casey

Offline Eight

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Re: Tsam ayhifkeyä
« Reply #13 on: February 15, 2010, 09:41:09 am »
Also note that in 'eko, the first infix position is after the glottal stop, so the subjunctive is 'iveko.
Should've trusted my instincts there - I was going to go with 'iveko but then changed my mind. Looking on the bright side, I've learned something new.

Analysing that Frommerian sentence now - cheers for that mate.

All your help is much appreciated. Although I fear the rest of the book might have to wait... not quite brave enough to tackle the next bit. Lol.

Offline Lance R. Casey

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Re: Tsam ayhifkeyä
« Reply #14 on: February 15, 2010, 09:45:30 am »
Need to check on the rules for a-, don't quite get when it can be dropped and when not at this point.

You're thinking about it the wrong way around -- it's not about when it can be dropped, but when it should be affixed. It is the attributive marker, so it is used in attributive situations:

a blue butt
txìm aean (ean blue)

the best warrior
sweya tsamsiyu (swey best)

But not in predicative situations:

my butt is blue
oeyä txìm lu ean

this warrior is best
fìtsamsiyu lu swey

Moving on to derived adjectives, the prefix le- is regarded as enough of a marker so as not to require the a- -- but it is required at the end of the word, which has no adjectival affix:

the Na'vi language
lì'fya leNa'vi
leNa'via lì'fya

(Lì'fya aleNa'vi is not out-and-out wrong, but redundant.)

thanators are dangerous
falulukan lu lehrrap
lehrrap falulukan lu

Better? ;)

// Lance R. Casey

Offline Eight

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Re: Tsam ayhifkeyä
« Reply #15 on: February 15, 2010, 09:49:10 am »
Better? ;)
Very much so, thank you.

I did think that was the case with a-, but wasn't sure and got a bit confused with all the things I've read today trying to get back into Nai'vi. Forgot about the inner workings of le- so it's great to get a clear explaination of everything... which I'm going to read twenty times before I go to bed tonight.

Irayo ma Lance.

Edit: Can't even post in English with wanting to edit it.

Offline Lance R. Casey

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Re: Tsam ayhifkeyä
« Reply #16 on: February 21, 2010, 02:09:28 pm »
I'm assuming you tried for a relative clause as per "who had greater minds", and since we don't have the verb "have", lu is required. However, something else that is required is the dative, and I don't quite see how to fit that in together with the subordinator. Perhaps something like aylapol a lamu foru X?
Just thought I'd point out (with some satisfaction) that this construction has turned out to be correct. ;)

// Lance R. Casey

Offline Eight

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Re: Tsam ayhifkeyä
« Reply #17 on: February 21, 2010, 04:28:17 pm »
Just thought I'd point out (with some satisfaction) that this construction has turned out to be correct. ;)
I don't think anyone doubted you - and it was what I would have written if I hadn't spaced out when I started the translation. :D

 

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