I have a message for this community

Started by Kyrenka, November 02, 2013, 01:11:03 PM

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Kyrenka

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Ezy Ryder

Don't mean to be rude; but how exactly do You plan to change... anything, for that matter? And how do You differ from all the other people who are trying to do so?

Kyrenka

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`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

You make a big deal about hunting. Do you really understand what benefits properly managed hunting brings to this world (besides a freezer full of meat and/or a trophy on the wall)? Do you understand that hunters are among the most active conservationists there are? Are you aware that conservation plans generally don't work well unless there is some consumptive use allowed? Many people here know I am a total lion nut, and a lionkeeper. I believe in lion conservation and habitat preservation. But I also believe there is a place for some managed lion hunting, even though I, myself would not do it. I have seen positive effects in places where managed lion hunting is allowed, and it is generally a benefit to the species.

I fully agree with you on poaching.

As for deforestation, it is a symptom of a larger problem: Human encroachment. I am not 100 percent sure we will be able to stop this problem, until people come to the realization that we shouldn't rempantly reproduce. This has happened to a certain extent in the western world. But in developing countries, large families mean more hands to do the hard work of existence. It may take a worldwide famine, where millions of people die or are killed because of lack of food. Or a horrible disease epidemic. A lot of the problems we are facing can be controlled simply by reining in our population growth. And no, I don't believe that UN Agenda 21 is the answer, either.

Believe what you want to believe. But don't try and force everyone to subscribe to your beliefs. Above all, get educated about the issues you believe in, and understand the issue from both sides. It might change the way you look at the world. And, other people will be far more likely to listen to you if you understand their viewpoint as well as yours.

Yawey ngahu!
pamrel si ro [email protected]

Kyrenka

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Ezy Ryder

It's hard to say whether You're the only one doing it, if You've still not specified what You're going to do.
Also, first You say You'd be ready to commit or even give Your life for this, and now You "end" it the same day You "started"?
EDIT: Or do You mean "to end it" in the other sense...?

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

#6
Quote from: Kyrenka on November 02, 2013, 02:40:38 PM
I guess I have no choice... if no one will do anything I'll have to end it...

Not to make light of your beliefs, ma Kyrenka, but this sounds to me like 'religious fanaticism'. I am deeply religious myself, but try to avoid fanaticism. Fanatacism rarely, if ever has solved a problem.

I need to move on to another problem today, to write comments on a proposed rulemaking to stop fanatics from enacting Federal rules that will make it very difficult for people who breed and work with big cats, to do what they have always done.

Yawey ngahu!
pamrel si ro [email protected]

Tsanten Eywa 'eveng

Quote from: Kyrenka on November 02, 2013, 01:11:03 PM
All this time I've been hiding in the shadows, hiding from things, not standing up to what is right, not having a voice, until now. There are a lot of things very wrong with the world and most of them are caused by Humans, is it because of what Humans can do? or is it because most Humans only do things to benefit themselves? The truth is most Human think they  are 'on top', They think they are the most important living thing that walks this Earth.

I have also been like this. I have had a tough time through my years. I had a tough time in at least 3 years time, from 8th grade to 10th grade. It was 3 tough years, and as you describe "hiding in the shadows". I've been in the shadow, but that is because a lot of people was bullying me. So i decided to lock myself out. I don't, maybe they were bullying me, because i was much different than all my old classmates. But there was some teachers that tried to help me, they were noticing something was wrong, so they asked me if something was wrong, and i explained it. So they told those people who were bullying me to stop this nonsense, well they did, but not for a long time, until it just got worse. And, i said to myself that this is enough. I am gonna try to avoid them. When i started my 1st year at High school, it got a bit better, but not very much. But then on the 2nd year(actually 1st year but on an another High school), it just got better and better. I met so much good people, all just good people. The 3rd year(2nd year on the other High school), it got to the climax. It was then, everything were just so great. I gave myself confidence and trust, and I got more open, trying to avoid to be anxious(I had anxiety before) and i got through it. It helped so much that I even got a girlfriend, which was great... until she dumped me :( but i have still my confidence and doesn't have anxiety.

But one thing i must say to you. Taking away hunting is bad. I really doubt the world would be upgoing without hunting. I have always been mad about the de-forestation, especially the massive rainforest in Brazil, covering most of South-America. If that is gone, i would guess we are gone aswell. Here in Norway, we are also fighting for someone, especially in this place in Norway i live in. We live of fish, and if the gouvernment take away the fish, i don't think we will live long. We have a new gouvernment now who is against oildrilling, but i am a bit sceptical to those politicians. I am afraid they will one day place some oil-platforms here. The most dangerous area to start oildrilling is in Lofoten, and i will fight to prevent an oil-disaster there.

Kyrenka, if you wanna know more, you can go read here: http://forum.learnnavi.org/environmental-conservation/yes-or-no-to-oil-production-in-lofoten-norway/

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

Ma Tsanten Eywa 'Eveng, not to steal this thread, but I had a similar experience in my school years. Lets just say I acted 'weird' and 'different' from other kinds. I was severely picked-on. In the summer between 8th and 9th grades, I decided to put this behaviour off. This was one of the biggest self-changes I ever made in my life. I was briefly harassed at the beginning of 9th grade, until I unexpectedly won a fight against some bullies (how I won, I'll never know, but I know they talked about it among themselves for a while). There was a little light harassment after that, but my high school years were otherwise great years. So great in fact, I was off to a good career without needing college!

The deforestation thing in the Amazon is very sad. I get the impression forum another thread that there are many people in Brazil who actually want this. Brazil (I think) is well-off enough I don't think there is a basic needs issue here. It then becomes people wanting the 'good life' without considering the consequences, or willing to pay more for it.

Yawey ngahu!
pamrel si ro [email protected]

Kyrenka

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Taronyu Leleioae

Ok, I'm going to add something to this...

QuoteHunting has to end...
Hunting laws and traditions vary rather significantly from country to country around the world, and even state to state here in the United States.  Not only is it highly regulated (usually) on how much you can legally take, even the tools (weapons) you use are significantly regulated.  Further, at least here in the northeast US, certain game (deer, moose, bear), have to be "tagged" and registered.  Not only is this to make sure you only take your legal limit in the season, but that the Fish & Game / Fish & Wildlife / Conservation division on the state level keeps a very very very close eye on the statistics as well as take samples to see how the game population is doing from year to year.  (Of course people can act illegally, but the majority do not.)  By doing this, the state can regulate how many can be hunted each year.  If the population is rapidly expanding, it will allow more to be taken.  This is to keep the overall state "herd" healthy, but not so abundant the game now has to compete for food, and starve.  If the numbers fall below expectation, the state reduces the number of permits. 

FURTHER, as 'Eylan Ayfalulukanä stated, the fees from hunting licenses, go directly into supporting the game management.  In Maine, almost all of the budget that the Fish & Wildlife division (full police officers, scientists, managers) in the State of Maine has, is DIRECTLY paid upon the fees from the hunting licenses and tax on certain related sporting goods.  Period.  So those participating (legally) contribute directly to the management and actual monitoring of the game.  One cannot go out and just blast away.  For those in the US, the recent reality TV show (Northwoods Law) is Maine.  So they even have agreed to show the public what they do for outdoor education.

Now..., you might say... no hunting.  HOWEVER, the Na'vi in the film had no problem with taking of game.  It is spiritually and physically part of life.  Without hunting, the tribe does not survive.  Hence the society term "Hunter / Gatherer".  I can personally vouch that I know families that hunt every year.  Not for sport.  Not just to kill because they can.  But because these families still DEPEND UPON hunting as part of their yearly existence, to survive.  Further, if a deer is accidentally hit/killed in Maine, the person has first right of refusal usually.  Then if a F&W Officer comes to the scene, or even State Police, and the game is refused, they will arrange to have it given to someone local in need that the know.  Thus... as best as they can, the body of the animal is respected and utilized.  Are you saying, that people in need who respect and depend upon hunting, should perish?  Because you are.

However, I do agree with you, that I have no heart for those that just want to annihilate the game population because they can.  Keep in mind what I stated up above though.  These people, however respectful or disrespectful, do have to pay to help manage the process.  And the industry as a whole, does benefit through jobs.


NOW... An example of another country.  Germany.  The country of Germany is highly regulated (no surprise...) on who can hunt and how.  You cannot just show up to hunt.  You can't even handle or own a firearm without significant permits.  The same even goes for archery.  To earn a hunting privilege, one must pass many tests including track identification, the "after" products after eating and digestion, and disease.  This isn't easy.  However, here's the interesting thing.  In Germany, one cannot just go out and hunt afterwards.  One has to apply for (money) and receive a permit to be responsible for a hunting area.  What does this mean?  If you get a 10 acre (or sqr km) area as your hunting "zone", you are ALSO responsible for the damage the game has caused causing auto accidents, and especially excessive damage to farmer's crops.  (Try telling a deer not to get into a farmer's field.)  What it means is that this hunter, has both limits of what they can hunt (quantity, when...), but they must also understand what impact the game have on the area if the game numbers grow excessively.

One can, of course, say "too bad", let the deer population expand.  The catch, is that if they over expand, that humans have removed many natural predators to keep the herd in balance.  Here in New England, especially Massachusetts, the deer numbers have returned to estimated levels at or higher than when the pilgrims arrived from Plymouth back in 1620.  (And think about how much roads and buildup we've done since then...)  My point is that without a certain amount of regulated hunting, the population will grow quickly out of control and became a danger to all.

Deer, of course, are only one species...


HERE IS MY CHALLENGE TO YOU...
I respect and acknowledge your opinion and mindset that hunting should end.  On your journey, consider how you can ALSO educate the public, or contribute to the hunting process as a whole, to help remind or even teach those who hunt, to ask why they do, and how they show respect and understanding when they hunt.  Are they safe?  Are they respecting what they take?  Why do they hunt?  I agree with you that there are many out there who are disrespectful and are there to, unfortunately, just "blast away".  But there are also many I have met who are respectful.  Are out there because it does help their family, and they understand why laws are there and why hunting is allowed in some areas, and not in others.

Perhaps you have a future in game conservation?  Be part of the management to help protect the wildlife and even manage or monitor "game preserves" (areas closed to all hunting).  That could be a productive future to help support what you believe in...


ta Taronyu Leleioae

archaic

Pasha, an Avatar story, my most recent fanfic, Avatar related, now complete.

The Dragon Affair my last fanfic, non Avatar related.

Taronyu Leleioae

True.  However one has to also look at this from the point of you from the farmer in Germany who is quick to blame or even is looking for a payout to "settle" the situation.  But I agree, the farmer should make strong efforts. 

This responsibility is how it was explained to me as I learned more about hunting in Germany, and was showing part of a person's area/zone and what the laws were.  Admittedly I do not know if anything has changed, but it certainly was interesting to learn and compare to.

Obviously more than deer is hunted.  It just happens to be perhaps the most common game animal desired.  And, in fact, we had a 4pt buck walk through our back yard a few days ago.  Fairly rare as we have so many roads.  But they are here sharing the land...

archaic

I may not be as familiar with the finer details of German farming and hunting as you, however I would ask who the farmer would seek this payout to settle the situation?
Will they sue the deer?
Mother nature?
Local hunting club?
Seed producer?


From what little I understand of the world in general, the assumption that any such situations result in someone demanding a payout from somebody else, might be a predominantly American fixation?

Also, I fear this thread is drifting.
Pasha, an Avatar story, my most recent fanfic, Avatar related, now complete.

The Dragon Affair my last fanfic, non Avatar related.

Tìtstewan

This is a really interesting thread and I've enjoyed to read it.

So, generally we have a lot of problems on earth. I will not mentioning everything of those problems, that would end in a too long list...
Regarding deforestation, I'm wondering why here is often mentioned the Amazonas basin, deforestation happends not only there, it happens on the whole planet. In Africa they doing this, because the people are poor, or Caribbean, a look at Haiti, this country hasn't any forest anymore, because the people have deforested their forests to make charcoal to survive. If we going to Asia, there you will find monocultures of palm oil for biodiesel, butter etc., for example Borneo has lost most of its forests... Than we have the forests in Canada which will be also destroyed because of tar sands to get oil...
I could continue this with the health of the seas and oceans but better not - it's just too much.

What we could do, to stop all this destructive actions by humans? The answere of this simple question is highly complex and there are a lots of opinions about it. I will write just my opinion and maybe an other member will be agree or not, or would add more thought about this. I remember me, I have mentioned some of my view in various threads. Though, I would start with the "root problems", there are two massive things, the actual economic structure and the overpopulation.
To reduce the overpopulation is extremely difficult. We cannot simply force an "One-child policy" on the whole world like in China. Also this policy has their problems too, e.g the pensions and care for the elder people. Also this would be a heavy violation in some cultures.
The next complex thing is the current economy system. Most destruction of the natural environment is forced by economic actions. Let me show an easy exaple, dam projects. China's economy as well as their cities growing fast and those manny houses, factories, modern infrastructure etc. need energy. So they starts to build big dams like the Three Gorges Dam (Or Brazil with that dam in the Amazonas basin). Of course, such big projectes are also prestige objects and for the companies who are involve in, it is about a lot of money.
Also a big thing is our standard of living. this standard is a big model for other people in poor countries. They also wish to have such a standard of living. Today we see a problem with availability of some recources just to hold the standard for a small part of the mankind. Could everyone imagine how this planet would look, if every 7 billion people have the same standard of living like the first world? This is just impossible. As I mentioned that example with Haiti and charcoal, a lot of people doing this, because they have no other choise to get money to survive.
I'm not an economist and I have no idea which alternatives would fit well to fix that, but I see there is a change needed. Not to mention the big lobbies of some companies and poweful / currupt politicians...
I agree, that to do a change, every individual person must start to think "Do I need really a new cellphone every half year?" or "Is it really necessary to use a car just to drive a few miles to the next supermarket instead to use a bike or bus?". I believe, that for example in the US, the most big supermarkets are located in the suburbs of the cities and it is necessary to use a car. As for the products, the companies should stop planned obsolence and developes their products for longer use.
The next thing would be the current spread of the money on the world. There is something wrong, if I read "The richest 10% have 85% of global wealth." This is not capitalism anymore, this is an out of-control capitalism...
We as "small" people have no power to do such a change, we only can do something by our behavior regarding the economy. I also should mention that therre are a lots of people, who won't lose their "life standard"...

As for the topic with the hunting:
There should one do a difference between "hunting", "hunting" and "hunting". Hunting for survive or population control, hunting just for fun or as sport and hunting for profits.
In the poor countries, many people hunting various species just to survive, but also to get some money. In South America, Africa and Aisia are some tribes, and they hunting only to survive, not excessive hunting like some poacher. Fishing is also another way to hunt, and a lots of sea areas are overfished...

Note, that in the most European states you cannot simply go into a forest and hunting what you want.

...economy, human, recources, energy, forests, hunting etc. is interlinked.


Just my small thoughts about this.

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Taronyu Leleioae

Quote from: Tìtstewan on November 03, 2013, 06:47:33 PM
Note, that in the most European states you cannot simply go into a forest and hunting what you want.
Thanks for showing this.  It confirms what I thought, in that it hasn't really changed...


Amazon/Brazil:  I think it's a foregone conclusion they are going to destroy the rainforest which will put our planet into an unstoppable climate change which will cause massive climate shifting and storms...  All for greed.  :(

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

Quote from: Kyrenka on November 03, 2013, 12:19:18 PM
Quote from: Tsanten Eywa 'eveng on November 02, 2013, 08:28:41 PMTaking away hunting is bad. I really doubt the world would be upgoing without hunting.
Hunting has to end... well some animals like deer are all well and good but I can't sit by knowing my Brothers and Sisters are being hunted...

I better leave it at that ;)

E: Sorry for the double post

I read in this post that the roots of Kyrenka's disdain of hunting are indeed spiritual. I believe he feels a connection with deer (and probably other animals) that makes them part of his 'family', and that if they are killed for any reason, it is murder. This is actually in my book, an animal rights mindset, and one of the strongest I have ever seen expressed. I am not sure how to react to this, as he has a right to his religious beliefs.

I don't think Kyrenka is alone in these beliefs. I feel a 'brother/sister' bond with lions, but at the same time I realize they are animals. Like all other animas, they were put here by our Creator for us to be stewards of. 'Stewardship' covers a very broad range of concepts. Animals can be enjoyed as they are, eaten or used to make other products, worked, displayed, or in some cases exterminated. The concept of stewardship can also vary from person to person. Personally, I consider all life, and especially animal life (and human life) as precious. However, I know that natural predators exist, and they our own bodies have more in common with them than specialized herbivores. Therefore, even though their lives are precious, we are 'plumbed' to able to extract significant nutrition from their bodies. Therefore, taking their lives for food is justified, as it is natural. This does not absolve us of the responsibility to treat their lives as precious, and we need to take steps to make sure that the food animal leads a reasonably humane life, and dies a quick death. Remember that the root of 'humane' is 'human', and it is a human concept. In general, we treat life with a lot more respect than most predators. (I thank God for the life of tha animal I eat, when I eat, and was doing that long before Avatar hit the scene.)

My advice to Kyrenka is to not hunt. That is your choice. You may, as Taronyu Leleioae suggests, work on becoming a conservationist, or working to improve animal husbandry practices. But do not be an activist. You can effect far more good by 'working through the system' than you ever can as an activist. And those of us who do work with animals have far more respect for a person who works to improve things through reasoned, sensible changes than one who protests, lets animals loose, spoils hunting areas, introduces ridiculous legislation, etc.

Although I see balance in development vs natural lands, I detest massive projects like the Belo Monte Dam, which will destroy so much valuable rainforest. (Many of the dams here in the American west were built in canyons with little significant life or habitation in them.) There is another senseless project proposed near here, where a foreign vintner wants to cut down something like 135 acres of a redwood forest for a vineyard. That is such an absurd waste of forestland that its hard to believe that this idea was even taken seriously. And especially because this is happening in the eco-nuts state of California!

Yawey ngahu!
pamrel si ro [email protected]

Taronyu Leleioae

#17
Quote from: `Eylan Ayfalulukanä on November 03, 2013, 11:15:26 PM
Personally, I consider all life, and especially animal life (and human life) as precious. However, I know that natural predators exist, and they our own bodies have more in common with them than specialized herbivores. Therefore, even though their lives are precious, we are 'plumbed' to able to extract significant nutrition from their bodies. Therefore, taking their lives for food is justified, as it is natural. This does not absolve us of the responsibility to treat their lives as precious, and we need to take steps to make sure that the food animal leads a reasonably humane life, and dies a quick death. Remember that the root of 'humane' is 'human', and it is a human concept. In general, we treat life with a lot more respect than most predators. (I thank God for the life of tha animal I eat, when I eat, and was doing that long before Avatar hit the scene.)
I agree with everything 'Eylan Ayfalulukanä has said, but the above even more so.  Perhaps my most favorite scene in the entire Avatar film, other than Neytiri introducing Jake to her ikran Seze, is the hunting scene where Jake shows respect and makes "a clean kill".  Even if one might view this as ritualistic, it has great meaning and importance as we are shown that the Na'vi do not see themselves above the other living creatures, but as equals and part of the whole.

====================================

This morning, there was a news release/article for the State of Maine about their new wildlife conservationist for Maine Dept of Fish & Wildlife.  I recognize that Kyrenka believes in a zero hunting stance.  However I wanted to share the link and article, because it shows someone who is passionate and aggressive in what he believes in, but is serving both the public and trying to represent the game/animals in the State.  

While there has been significant turnover in the last 5-10 years, I have met and known a number of the older "Game Wardens".  They work very hard at what they do, often not having "popularity" with the public as they try to enforce the laws and protect the game.  My hat is off to them...

Link to Article


Kyrenka

#18
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Ezy Ryder

#19
Um...  Honestly?
I don't know nearly as much about astronomy as some of the other users out here, but... Think of the moon. It's relatively small, compared to the planets. That would mean that it'd be easier to relocate it out of its orbit, than an actual planet. It has collided with asteroids (or whatever those are called) multiple times. Some of them have probably been orders of magnitude bigger than rockets produced by us. And is the moon still orbiting around earth?
As for the mountain lion part; so You just don't like pretty things being killed, or something? And in what sense You "lose a part of [yourself]"?

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