Number Converter down

[Tirea Aean]

Yes. Zahivol. Without question.

I'm saying now that I would be absolutely and utterly DUMBFOUNDED if the following were not correct:



me+
pxe+
tsì+
mrr+
pu+
ki+

vo+
mevo+
pxevo+
tsìvo+
mrrvo+
puvo+
kivo+

za+

meza+
pxeza+
tsìza+
mrrza+
puza+
kiza+

voza+
mevoza+
pxevoza+
tsìvoza+
mrrvoza+
puvoza+
kivoza+

zaza+
mezaza+
pxezaza+
tsìzaza+
mrrzaza+
puzaza+
kizaza+

[`Eylan Ayfalulukanä]

Is there some unwritten rule that kind of decides what sound shapes trigger lenition, and which do not?

And although I think you are spot-on with your analysis, a confirmation from K. Pawl is absolutely in order.

[Tirea Aean]

No, we just know that every single number prefix in the language is lenition-causing.

EDIT: mail sent. Will post here when receive an answer.

[Tanri]

We already know that root numbers are in lenited form when used as suffix (e.g. vohin, zasìvofu), but this all-leniting-principle does it systematically.
Looking forward for confirmation.

[Blue Elf]

Eh? But.. It's obvious.

Would it really make sense to have absolute confirmation of zam -> za+ but yet think that vozam and zazam don't shorten to lenition-causing forms in the same way as zam so that they too will be like every single other number? O__0

OK I guess explicit confirmation won't hurt at all.

IMO confirmation is need, as:
327 oct =  pxezam + mevol + kinä =  pxeza-mevo-hin
1327 oct = vozam + pxezam + mevol + kinä = voza-pxe/peza-mevo-hin

So far, we had only complete table of number 000 - 077, for higher number we've seen just multiples of zam/vozam/zazam without any attached number behind them

[Tìtstewan]

The "weird" thing is that a prefix lenite another prefix -> Xza-p(x)evol (I think this is possible and I don't see any logical reason why it shouldn't be the case)

Ma BE, your 327° example is obvious as double m is not possible in numbers and one m will drop... otherwise we would have "zammun", which we haven't...

[Tanri]

The "weird" thing is that a prefix lenite another prefix -> Xza-p(x)evol (I think this is possible and I don't see any logical reason why it shouldn't be the case)

There isn't prefix after prefix, the number structure is like this:

higher rank prefix - higher rank root .... lower rank prefix - lower rank root .... suffix

mrrza..k.ivo..pey


The lenited form of suffix is already known*, so the question is simple - does any rank root lenite the following number prefix, or not?
_*source

[Blue Elf]

The "weird" thing is that a prefix lenite another prefix -> Xza-p(x)evol (I think this is possible and I don't see any logical reason why it shouldn't be the case)

Ma BE, your 327° example is obvious as double m is not possible in numbers and one m will drop... otherwise we would have "zammun", which we haven't...

But it doesn't mean that it disappeared because of trimming m from zam as another rank of number follows. We need official examples of "high" numbers with all ranks.

[Tirea Aean]

We have known for ages that zero is kew. The number tool has a blank conditional for the case that input is 0. I propose this change to the JavaScript file:

numberthing.js [s.learnnavi.org/js/numberthing.js]

On line 5, column 252, add the following:

$('#n_n').html(e_input_number);
$('#n_base').html(radix);
$('#new_oct_w').html('kew');
$('#n_new_dec').html('0');
$('#n_new_oct').html('0');
$('#n_new_oct_s').html('0');
$('#n_new_oct_ws').html('kew');

[Tirea Aean]

I have word back from Pawl.

I was wrong.

But he provided a nice explanation as to why, which was nice.

I love being wrong; like a scientist, I find disproved hypotheses probably more exciting than proven ones. Makes everything feel wonderful and less predictable.

Here's the email exchange. [Will post on /language-updates]

Kaltxì ma Pawl,

I just have a quick confirmation question about a number.

Octal number 77777. Is this written out as

kizazamkivozamkizamkivohin

or

kizazahivozahizahivohin

Basically, does it follow logically from your confirmation that zam has lenition-causing short form za+, that vozam has voza+ and zazam has zaza+?

Irayo nìtxan

Tirea/Corey

Ma Corey,

[..]

In answer to your questions, go with the first option:

kizazamkivozamkizamkivohin

Otherwise the multiple lenition is going to make large numbers like this difficult to understand. Since such numbers occur much less frequently than the smaller ones where lenition has applied, it's not improbable that these big numbers would be thought of as being made up of independent units, where lenition doesn't cross the boundaries:

kizazam | kivozam | kizam | kivohin

[..]

P.

I've sent a follow-up for further confirmations. I asked him:

So how then do you feel about these numbers:

o70003 Kizazampxey (kizazapey?)
o7001 Kivozam'aw (kivozamaw?)
o704 Kizamtsìng (kizasìng?)
You've already have told us in a comment on Na'viteri about zam (o100):
Zamaw(o101), zamun(o102), zapey(o103), etc.

Or is it that these zazam, vozam, zam words don't cause lenition on /each other specifically/, but do on the ones and eights place numbers?

[Tìtstewan]

 
And what's about that double m like in zammrrvol 150₈ - 104₁₀?

[archaic]

With the implication that, under certain circumstances, your multiple lenition option version could be used.

Such as when avatars/drivers are discussing large quantities?

[Tìtstewan]

Such as when avatars/drivers are discussing large quantities?

btw, by the logic of: vol [10₈] - zam [100₈] - vozam [1'000₈] - zazam [10'000₈]
the next possible step would be *vozazam [100'000₈]

[Tirea Aean]

And what's about that double m like in zammrrvol 150₈ - 104₁₀?

I think mm still merges to m.

Ok, new Hypothesis:

1) mm always -> m

2) [A]zazam[B]vozam[C]zam[D]vo[E]

Where:

A, B, C, D are the lenition-causing prefix short-forms of numbers mune-vol:
me+,pxe+,tsì+,mrr+,pu+,ki+,vo+

E is either -l, or the lenited suffix short-form of numbers 'aw-kinä:
-aw,-mun,-pey,-sìng,-mrr,-fu,-hin

3) All powers and multiples of powers of 8, higher than 8⁰ cause lenition on the ones place. No other lenition.

So this would happen:

zamaw,zamun,zapey,zasìng,zamrr,zafu,zahin,zavol. (o101 - o110)
zavol,zamevol,zampxevol,zamtsìvol,zamrrvol,zampuvol,zamkivol, mezam. (o110 - o200)

vozamaw,vozamun,vozapey,vozasìng,vozamrr,vozafu,vozahin,vozamvol. (o1001 - o1010)
vozamvol,vozamevol,vozampxevol,vozamtsìvol,vozamrrvol,vozampuvol,vozamkivol,vozamezam. (o1010 - o1200)

Zazamaw,zazamun,zazapey,zazasìng,zazamrr,zazafu,zazahin,zazamvol. (o10001 - o10010)
zazamvol,zazamevol,zazampxevol,zazamtsìvol, zazamrrvol,zazamkivol,zazamzam. (o10010 - o10100)

With the implication that, under certain circumstances, your multiple lenition option version could be used.

Such as when avatars/drivers are discussing large quantities?

My multiple lenition version has just been laid to rest in favour of the leaving the lenition short forms out. To express 10₁₀¹²... This is probably not possible except to multiply known values together.

ten to the twelfth is 1x10¹² which in octal is... 16432451210000.
1x8¹³+6x8¹²+4x8¹¹+3x8¹⁰+2x8⁹+4x8⁸+5x8⁷+1x8⁶+2x8⁵+1x8⁴+0x8³+0x8²+0x8¹+0x8⁰

A close (not really, but for a race who never uses such numbers) approximation would be 2x8¹³. We only have up to 8⁴ so we would multiply 8¹ by 8⁴ by 8⁴ by 8⁴.

mevol x zazam x zazam x zazam = 2x8¹³ which is decimal: 1.0995116x10¹²

EDIT: beware the edits.

[Blue Elf]

Such as when avatars/drivers are discussing large quantities?

btw, by the logic of: vol [10₈] - zam [100₈] - vozam [1'000₈] - zazam [10'000₈]
the next possible step would be *vozazam [100'000₈]

Do we really need such big numbers? I love idea I've read somewhere: For Na'vi it is enough to learn numbers 1-16. All other is pxay

In answer to your questions, go with the first option:

kizazamkivozamkizamkivohin

Otherwise the multiple lenition is going to make large numbers like this difficult to understand. Since such numbers occur much less frequently than the smaller ones where lenition has applied, it's not improbable that these big numbers would be thought of as being made up of independent units, where lenition doesn't cross the boundaries:

kizazam | kivozam | kizam | kivohin

I feel more than happy when read this

[`Eylan Ayfalulukanä]

Do we really need such big numbers? I love idea I've read somewhere: For Na'vi it is enough to learn numbers 1-16. All other is pxay

I think we just need to accept the fact that, for whatever reason, the Naʼvi are more adept with numbers than other hunter-gatherer tribes of similar technology levels.

[Tirea Aean]

Do we really need such big numbers? I love idea I've read somewhere: For Na'vi it is enough to learn numbers 1-16. All other is pxay

I think we just need to accept the fact that, for whatever reason, the Naʼvi are more adept with numbers than other hunter-gatherer tribes of similar technology levels.

Or is it that what we have here is one our attempts to extrapolate the number system to very large values that are hardly ever used, based on logic and such information about how the Na'vi think about units.

Indeed, we never will really use these massive numbers in conversation or daily life, but they're there in case we ever would need them. We have far far larger numbers than this in most Earth languages, even though we hardly ever need to use them outside the fields of science, math, engineering, etc. No one on the streets really has a need to use specific really large numbers. Probably except to talk about money and riches or debt. But even then, it's always in clean powers of ten, never stuff like 31,826,272,328. 30 trillion would be more commonly found than that.

[archaic]

The tribe has almost tsìzam members, each will eat around tsìvol teylu.
How many teylu do we need to collect today?
Mezazam!

[Tìtstewan]

Such as when avatars/drivers are discussing large quantities? btw, by the logic of: vol [108] - zam [1008] - vozam [1'0008] - zazam [10'0008] the next possible step would be *vozazam [100'0008] Do we really need such big numbers? I love idea I've read somewhere: For Na'vi it is enough to learn numbers 1-16. All other is pxay

But why do we have MUCH bigger numbers? Numbers which are so big that you would hear them only one time in your life, but we still have such big numbers also as big numbers are build by a specific logic.
*100% speculation*
*zazazam [1'000'000₈] (262'144₁₀) *vozazazam [10'000'000₈] (2'097'152₁₀) *zazazazam [100'000'000₈] (16'777'216₁₀) etc.

As bigger a number will be, as rarer it will be used. How many time you have used e.g. "Decillion" (10³³ US / 10⁶⁰ EU) in your life? (I, never)
You see if you don't use a big number, it does not mean that they don't exist.

[Tirea Aean]

Ma Tìtstewan, that was exactly my point too

[...]Indeed, we never will really use these massive numbers in conversation or daily life, but they're there in case we ever would need them. We have far far larger numbers than this in most Earth languages, even though we hardly ever need to use them outside the fields of science, math, engineering, etc. No one on the streets really has a need to use specific really large numbers. Probably except to talk about money and riches or debt. But even then, it's always in clean powers of ten, never stuff like 31,826,272,328. 30 trillion would be more commonly found than that.