Author Topic: Suggestion for a 'Beginner sand box board'  (Read 1438 times)

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Offline Tìtstewan

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Suggestion for a 'Beginner sand box board'
« on: February 18, 2014, 11:16:49 am »
So, because it was mentioned and discussed in our PM discussion, I want to make this suggestion official, so that other smuk know what's going on. :)
The idea is to create a childboard in the beginners board, which would allow a beginner to learn Na'vi by their own trying. That section would be like a 'sand box'.

Title of the board: Na'vi practise for Beginners
The board description: Make your first steps in Na'vi here!
(better suggestions are welcome!)

Structure:
-- Beginners
   '-- Na'vi practise for beginners
   '-- Vocab / Phrases
   '-- Syntax / Grammar
   '-- Pronunciation / Phonetics
   '-- Prefixes, Infixes and Suffixes

Please post your additional suggestions or points I maybe forgot here. :)

PS, I already have a nice idea for a thread which would fit there well! :D

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Offline Stranger Come Knocking

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Re: Suggestion for a 'Beginner sand box board'
« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2014, 07:59:13 pm »
How is this different from the Beginner Practice Thread?  Or the Beginner board in general where people post their individual sentences?
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Offline Taronyu Leleioae

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Re: Suggestion for a 'Beginner sand box board'
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2014, 08:47:44 pm »
Um.  I think that you are trying to move all the intro thread and suggestions into the sandbox?  What I was proposing earlier was to have a child forum (aka sandbox) inside of the beginners section/forum.  Leave the primary learning, introductions, guides... where they are.  Then have this deeper child forum be the place for the chat, the separate sentence feedback (soliciting corrections) thread, places to put individual threads, their own "work" area, etc.  IMO let's not rush this just to have it.

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Re: Suggestion for a 'Beginner sand box board'
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2014, 02:00:39 am »
I think I almost fell into this trap, and did not post a post I had prepared several hours ago. ;)

I think what Tìtstewan is proposing here is to simply add a subforum for practice threads to the 'Beginners' forum. I don't think he is trying to duplicate the structure of the Beginner's board. The advantage to this idea is it allows for the free deployment of various chat/practice threads, kind of like a beginner's nìNaʼvi nìʼaw. The disadvantage is this area would be 'two layers down' the forum hierarchy, and therefore will be harder to find.

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Offline Tìtstewan

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Re: Suggestion for a 'Beginner sand box board'
« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2014, 07:42:21 am »
How is this different from the Beginner Practice Thread?  Or the Beginner board in general where people post their individual sentences?
This idea appears in our PM discussion. To be honest, I actually to tired to read three pages á 15 PMs to 'fishing' the details...
In this place would be not only sentences. A translation of a little text would fit there, for example. And a thread is limited ... to a thread.

Um.  I think that you are trying to move all the intro thread and suggestions into the sandbox?  What I was proposing earlier was to have a child forum (aka sandbox) inside of the beginners section/forum. Leave the primary learning, introductions, guides... where they are.
Not really. The sticky threads in the main beginner board looks overloaded:
There are 9 sticky threads and it looks overloaded. I don't know how it's look on a larger screen than 1920x1080px, and I don't mention the tablets etc... However, this doesn't mean and it's not intentioned that I would move those threads into the 'sand box'. I would doing a 'thread reorganization' there only. For example, I would move my Na'viteri files thread into the intermeriate, because is not really beginner stuff, but worth a mentioning there.

Then have this deeper child forum be the place for the chat, the separate sentence feedback (soliciting corrections) thread, places to put individual threads, their own "work" area, etc.
I think, that chat thread can be there where it is, expect Alyara Arati wish to put it there. See that place like a real sandbox for beginner, not limited by only one big thread. It would be like the Pamtseo and Pamrel nìNa'vi nì'aw but not for songs and poems.

IMO let's not rush this just to have it.
As much as I agree on this, I sometimes not a friend of that, because in two years, nobody knows what we talks today...
Also, we could test it.

I think I almost fell into this trap, and did not post a post I had prepared several hours ago. ;)

I think what Tìtstewan is proposing here is to simply add a subforum for practice threads to the 'Beginners' forum. I don't think he is trying to duplicate the structure of the Beginner's board. The advantage to this idea is it allows for the free deployment of various chat/practice threads, kind of like a beginner's nìNaʼvi nìʼaw. The disadvantage is this area would be 'two layers down' the forum hierarchy, and therefore will be harder to find.
Exactly.
With structure I mean this:
-- Beginners <- the beginner main section...as it is...
   '-- Na'vi practise for beginners <- that suggested board
   '-- Vocab / Phrases <- we already have...
   '-- Syntax / Grammar <- we already have...
   '-- Pronunciation / Phonetics <- we already have...
   '-- Prefixes, Infixes and Suffixes
<- we already have, too...
(Note to me, next time I should use a better describing for that what I mean...)

As for that "two layers down" thing, that's why I would put it at the first place of those childboards.

The most points here was already mentioned in our PM discussion.
  • creating a childboard for practise Na'vi for beginner <- this is, why this thread existing
  • "rebooting" the beginner chat thread <- that voted split is missing, but then it is done
  • creating a intermetiate chat thread to serve the intermediate and advance member <- done
  • etc.

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Offline Tìtstewan

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Re: Suggestion for a 'Beginner sand box board'
« Reply #5 on: March 01, 2014, 12:59:08 pm »
There are any suggestions? Or this idea also died? :-\
Also, the beginner thread hasn't been splitted as it was decided by the poll.

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Offline Kame Ayyo’koti

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Re: Suggestion for a 'Beginner sand box board'
« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2014, 06:17:40 am »
In my eyes the problem with the Beginner Chat Thread is this:

The Beginner Chat Thread is the ONLY place beginners can practice speaking nìNa’vi in a conversational way (as opposed to posting sentences and asking if they are correct). And the problem with this is the BCT is an ongoing conversation, and when anyone posts something new, it creates another conversation, sometimes even "alongside" the one that's already going on. It becomes confusing to sort out the different discussions, because it's only one thread. The BCT is basically a chatroom in thread form. To me, it's the equivalent of nìNa’vi nì’aw being a single thread, with Tìpängkxo Kìng being the on-going "chatter," and all the other threads being the other discussions that people want to start.

I imagine this is intimidating for beginners, and might be a reason they don't post more often: They want to speak, but they don't want to interrupt a conversation that's already happening because they feel it would be rude.

A "nìNa’vi Practice Sub-Board" would allow discussions to be kept separate from each other, learners could start threads for whatever topic they want without feeling like they're interrupting  (or like they're forced to join the discussion already going on), and unlike nìNa’vi nì’aw English translations/corrections would still be allowed. This would be different than the existing boards, which are for asking particular questions and getting English answers, not discussion in Na’vi.

I support this idea. I think it would encourage learners to use what they know to have basic conversations, and still get corrections.
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Offline Toruk Makto

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Re: Suggestion for a 'Beginner sand box board'
« Reply #7 on: June 08, 2014, 07:56:35 am »
I like this idea. Let me look into it.


EDIT: Subboard Created.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2014, 08:04:03 am by Toruk Makto »

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Offline Tìtstewan

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Re: Suggestion for a 'Beginner sand box board'
« Reply #8 on: June 08, 2014, 08:09:36 am »
WOU! I didn't expect that this section will be created. :D Irayo nìtxan! :D

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Offline Plumps

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Re: Suggestion for a 'Beginner sand box board'
« Reply #9 on: June 09, 2014, 06:08:14 am »
Okay, it’s on… but how to treat it now? How is it different from all the other conversation threads we already have in Beginners, Intermediate, and Na’vi Nì’aw?

Honestly, I haven’t answered or written there yet because I don’t know how to behave correctly.

Offline Tìtstewan

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Re: Suggestion for a 'Beginner sand box board'
« Reply #10 on: June 09, 2014, 07:01:36 am »
That board is like these chat threads, but not limited to a thread. If one want to talk about something for example about weather, one wrtite in that weather thread only about the weather in Na'vi and the translation.
nìNa'vi nì'aw is for "masters" and Na'vi language only - Lì'fya le'Ìnglìsì lu kxanì nìwotx. :)
Intermediate is more or less for intermediate discussions (with professional discussion)

That board is like the nìNa'vi nì'aw, but English is allowed, there should be no professional or at all (but tipps are ok) language discussion, for that we have other boards in the beginners section. :)

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Offline Plumps

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Re: Suggestion for a 'Beginner sand box board'
« Reply #11 on: June 09, 2014, 07:18:18 am »
Tse, keyeyti ’eykivì’awn tsatseng…

Well then, let mistakes remain… I’m sorry if I rant but that’s exactly what I didn’t understand in the first place. It’s all well and fine to encourage people to write and try out their sentences. Some want to be corrected right away, others learn rather by copying and trying out.
But for those who want to be corrected right away then to switch between boards to find an answer to a grammatical conundrum is just tedious.

Oeru txoa livu nìngay, just my 2¢

Offline Tìtstewan

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Re: Suggestion for a 'Beginner sand box board'
« Reply #12 on: June 09, 2014, 08:20:37 am »
Well, lets look how this board will be...

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Offline Eana Unil

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Re: Suggestion for a 'Beginner sand box board'
« Reply #13 on: June 09, 2014, 08:25:34 am »
Zene mivllte Plumpsìhu. "Doppelt gemoppelt", as you'd say in German, in my humble opinion, though I know it was all just good intentions, eh.  :)
But yeah, let's just see how it evolves and turns out after some time 0o ^^

Offline Tìtstewan

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Re: Suggestion for a 'Beginner sand box board'
« Reply #14 on: June 09, 2014, 08:41:07 am »
Since this thread existed, NO ONE have posted here what one thought about against this idea. Then, this board has been created and suddenly here appears comments which are against that idea.
If there is the wish, that we souldn't have such a board, let the admin move that single thread somewhere and remove that board. So, everything would be changed back like it was.
I really have no problem with this decission.

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Offline Eana Unil

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Re: Suggestion for a 'Beginner sand box board'
« Reply #15 on: June 09, 2014, 09:33:35 am »
Well, sorry that I didn't state my objections/concerns in this thread, but I've been very busy with my life, as usual, and might have overseen/forgotten it. Happens, I guess? No need to pout or anything :) I didn't mean any offense, as usuall, as well. Though I agree with Plums, I have no problem with observing how this developes, like I said before, but that's just my opinion.

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Re: Suggestion for a 'Beginner sand box board'
« Reply #16 on: June 09, 2014, 09:40:43 am »
This is no problem, so don't worry about it. :)
It's like how one say in German, Kind ist in den Brunnen gefallen und dann wird gehandelt...

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Offline Kame Ayyo’koti

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Re: Suggestion for a 'Beginner sand box board'
« Reply #17 on: June 09, 2014, 02:04:55 pm »
How is it different from all the other conversation threads we already have in Beginners, Intermediate, and Na’vi Nì’aw?

The practice threads are many conversations, in one thread. It's like a chatroom, and this is confusing, messy, and as I speculated above, intimidating to beginners who feel like they're interrupting a conversation or must join the one already going on.

An entire section will allow them to start topics on whatever they want to talk about, to have their own discussions, without mixing it in with any other discussions going on—as happens in the chat threads.

Imagine nìNa’vi nì’aw as a single thread. That's what the practice threads are: many conversations in one place. We're simply making it more like nìNa’vi nì’aw: There can be many discussions, many topics, in their own threads.

... there should be no professional or at all (but tipps are ok) language discussion, for that we have other boards in the beginners section. :)
Well then, let mistakes remain… I’m sorry if I rant but that’s exactly what I didn’t understand in the first place. It’s all well and fine to encourage people to write and try out their sentences. Some want to be corrected right away, others learn rather by copying and trying out.
But for those who want to be corrected right away then to switch between boards to find an answer to a grammatical conundrum is just tedious.

I disagree with you on this ma oeyä Tsmukan alu Tìtstewan, corrections should still be made, as they are in the practice threads. That is the point of "practice," after all: You do it, you find mistakes, you correct them and keep going. aySngä’iyu need us to point out their mistakes and explain them. This already happens in the chat threads.

As I see it, the difference between the Practice board and the rest of the beginner boards is focus: As in the chat threads, the focus is on actually talking and using the language (but corrections are still made). In the other boards, the emphasis/point is learning about the language, or posting examples of one's own writing and asking for corrections.

Think of it like this: The Practice board is a "chat room(s?)," where people can talk nìNa’vi, but still be corrected. The other boards are classrooms, where you ask specific questions and get answers, or you "turn in assignments" for corrections.
  • When you post a sentence in the "classroom," you are not starting a conversation, you are presenting it and saying, "I wrote this, tell me if it's right."
  • When you post a sentence in the "chat room," you are starting/having a conversation nìNa’vi, and you want other people to reply nìNa’vi—but others will still correct you. Corrections can happen "on the side," while the main discussion continues.

That's how I understand it. I agree with Plumps that we still need to correct them, because each time they repeat a mistake that mistake becomes more ingrained, and they hurt their own ability to speak the language properly. But like in the chat threads, corrections happen "off to the side," and should probably be kept in spoiler sections.

One very good reason corrections should be allowed is this: The desire everyone has is to say what they want to say in Na’vi. Beginners want to say something in a conversation nìNa’vi, but don't know how. They try anyway and speak incorrectly. When we correct them, we are not only correcting them, but teaching them how to say what they desire to say as part of the discussion correctly. And whatever it is they want to talk about, they will probably talk about again in the future; and next time, they will know the right way to say it.

So, I would say ma Plumps: Treat discussions in the Practice board the same way you do the chat threads. The only difference is each topic has its own thread now, so there are many chat threads, not just one. :)
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Offline Blue Elf

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Re: Suggestion for a 'Beginner sand box board'
« Reply #18 on: June 09, 2014, 02:09:42 pm »
Tse, keyeyti ’eykivì’awn tsatseng…

Well then, let mistakes remain… I’m sorry if I rant but that’s exactly what I didn’t understand in the first place. It’s all well and fine to encourage people to write and try out their sentences. Some want to be corrected right away, others learn rather by copying and trying out.
But for those who want to be corrected right away then to switch between boards to find an answer to a grammatical conundrum is just tedious.

Oeru txoa livu nìngay, just my 2¢

Quote
Okay, it’s on… but how to treat it now? How is it different from all the other conversation threads we already have in Beginners, Intermediate, and Na’vi Nì’aw?

Honestly, I haven’t answered or written there yet because I don’t know how to behave correctly.
Same here. I have really no idea how deep in grammar discussion we can go in various threads to not discourage anybody from trying/learning. Probably time show how these various threads will be used. At this time usage probably will be low, but... who knows. New people are still coming.
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Re: Suggestion for a 'Beginner sand box board'
« Reply #19 on: June 09, 2014, 02:21:52 pm »
... there should be no professional or at all (but tipps are ok) language discussion, for that we have other boards in the beginners section. :)
Well then, let mistakes remain… I’m sorry if I rant but that’s exactly what I didn’t understand in the first place. It’s all well and fine to encourage people to write and try out their sentences. Some want to be corrected right away, others learn rather by copying and trying out.
But for those who want to be corrected right away then to switch between boards to find an answer to a grammatical conundrum is just tedious.

I disagree with you on this ma oeyä Tsmukan alu Tìtstewan, corrections should still be made, as they are in the practice threads. That is the point of "practice," after all: You do it, you find mistakes, you correct them and keep going. aySngä’iyu need us to point out their mistakes and explain them. This already happens in the chat threads.
I rather mean "professional" discussion about the language, which was many times a reason to split out stuff from the beginner chat thread. Corrections are still ok, but not "professional" discussion one would make in the other boards.
It's also in the Conversations Guidelines:
Quote
Try to not let topics turn into formal lessons or more technical discussions of the merits of the language. There are other boards for that.
Sorry, if I misunderstood it or I didn't express me correctly. :-[

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