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Offline Blue Elf

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Comparison
« on: January 04, 2013, 03:47:51 pm »
question is how to compare two things with verb different than lu.
We have example:
Oe lu koak to nga -> I'm older than you. Structure is:
(first thing being compared) lu (adjective) to (second thing being compared) - different orders are possible too.

But how it works if different verb is used, like:
I hoped that no one would receive more than scrapes and bruises
sìlpey oe tsnì kawtul ke 'ivefu tìsrawit afe' to skxirtsyìp
lit: I hope nobody will feel more(worse) pain than small injury .

But here adjective is connected to one of things being compared, so gives such usage sense? Do we have some example from Paul different than the first one?
Also: what about case endings in this usage?
« Last Edit: January 31, 2013, 12:09:19 pm by Blue Elf »
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
"Oe tasyätxaw ulte koren za'u oehu" (Limonádový Joe)


Offline Vawmataw

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Re: Comparison
« Reply #1 on: January 04, 2013, 03:59:02 pm »
A language without the verb to be is not a language.
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Offline Plumps

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Re: Comparison
« Reply #2 on: January 04, 2013, 04:39:30 pm »
A language without the verb to be is not a language.
That’s not what he asked, ma Kameyu ;)
And I wouldn’t think that much inside the box … If I’m not mistaken, Klingon doesn’t have a verb ‘to be’ per se and it’s a language. I’m sure there are other precedences in natural languages.

Ma BE ;)

at least we have a blessed version of a sentence that tsmukan Prrton wrote some time ago with lam lor to.
I’m not sure about the case marking but I guess at least the to-part doesn’t get a case ending. All other references I found were with lu or introduced a verb phrase with fwa after to, e.g. Ftue lu fwa taron ngonga ioangit to fwa taron pumit a lu walak sì win.

Offline Kemaweyan

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Re: Comparison
« Reply #3 on: January 04, 2013, 04:44:10 pm »
It seems very similar to Japanese より (yori), I said it in Russian section already: http://forum.learnnavi.org/k-a/ooae-to/ I created more examples:

  Fìlì'fyaviri tsalì'uto zene fko sivar pumit alu tsaw.
  In this phrase (we) must use tsaw than that word.

  Pamrel si nga nìNa'vi nìtam. Tsawto fmivi pivlltxe.
  You write in Na'vi enough. Better try to speak.

Also to is a particle (not adposition), so we might use it not only with nouns or pronouns and not only in nominative case.
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Offline Vawmataw

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Re: Comparison
« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2013, 04:51:39 pm »
It seems very similar to Japanese より (yori), I said it in Russian section already: http://forum.learnnavi.org/k-a/ooae-to/ I created more examples:

  Fìlì'fyaviri tsalì'uto zene fko sivar pumit alu tsaw.
  In this phrase (we) must use tsaw than that word.

  Pamrel si nga nìNa'vi nìtam. Tsawto fmivi pivlltxe.
  You write in Na'vi enough. Better try to speak.

Also to is a particle (not adposition), so we might use it not only with nouns or pronouns and not only in nominative case.
How would you say ''I'm older than you''?
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Offline Kemaweyan

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Re: Comparison
« Reply #5 on: January 04, 2013, 04:53:46 pm »
As is in official examples:

  Oe to nga koak lu.
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Offline Vawmataw

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Re: Comparison
« Reply #6 on: January 04, 2013, 04:54:46 pm »
question is how to compare two things with verb different than lu.

Trolled. *oì-*

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Offline Kemaweyan

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Re: Comparison
« Reply #7 on: January 04, 2013, 05:19:50 pm »
I don't see dofferent verbs in this example:

  sìlpey oe tsnì kawtul ke 'ivefu tìsrawit afe' to skxirtsyìp

Actually we can modify this sentence to

  sìlpey oe tsnì kawtul ke 'ivefu tìsrawit afe' to pum a 'efu fkol ta skxirtsyìp

Verb is the same - 'efu.
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Offline Vawmataw

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Re: Comparison
« Reply #8 on: January 04, 2013, 05:28:11 pm »
Translate me ''I'm happier than you'' without using verb ''lu'', please. So, you'll answer to Blue Elf's question. :)
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Offline Kemaweyan

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Re: Comparison
« Reply #9 on: January 04, 2013, 05:29:30 pm »
Oe to nga 'efu nitram. :P
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Offline Vawmataw

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Re: Comparison
« Reply #10 on: January 04, 2013, 05:34:07 pm »
 :-[  Try with ''I'm older than you'' and ''They're fatter than me'', please. *challenge accepted*
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Offline Kemaweyan

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Re: Comparison
« Reply #11 on: January 04, 2013, 05:37:03 pm »
Already wrote:

 Oe to nga koak lu.

And second sentence:

  Fo to oe nutx lu.

In general case oe to nga X, where X could be anything.
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Offline Vawmataw

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Re: Comparison
« Reply #12 on: January 04, 2013, 08:14:46 pm »
Ma Blue Elf sì Kemaweyan, Kameyul a Kepekftu mengati kameie

εὕρηκα! Kanom would work.

Ngal kanom nì'ul tsawlhì't oeto. You're taller than me.
Oel kanom nì'ul tìlorit ngato. I'm more beautiful than you.

I also make comparative sentences with other verbs:

Oe nì'ul lopx ngato. I'm more panicked than you.
Oe nì'ul nari si ngato. I'm more careful than you.

Ma Blue Elf, oe sìlpey tsnì 'ameyng ngeyä tìpawmit.

Kìyevame ulte Eywa mengahu
« Last Edit: January 04, 2013, 08:23:01 pm by Kameyu a Kepekmì »
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Offline Kemaweyan

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Re: Comparison
« Reply #13 on: January 04, 2013, 09:33:37 pm »
We don't use nì'ul with to. And why not just Nga tsawl oeto lu?
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Offline Plumps

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Re: Comparison
« Reply #14 on: January 05, 2013, 12:39:07 am »
I think it’s just a misunderstanding here ;)

Ma Kameyu, tsmukan BE just wanted to know whether the to construct is also possible with verbs where we don’t use lu. Right now we only have official examples with lu and no other verb in Na’vi. In English we can use almost every verb to make comparisons. Your second set of sentences are very good in that although, as Kemaweyan pointed out. With to there is no need for nì’ul.

     Oe ngato lopx. I panic more than you.
     Oe to nga nari si. I am more careful than you.

Your kanom examples don’t work because it’s ‘get’ in the sense of literally ‘receive’. I don’t think that you can receive size or beauty.


Also to is a particle (not adposition), so we might use it not only with nouns or pronouns and not only in nominative case.
That’s right… it just behaves like an adposition. So it’s similar to . I’m trying to think of a good example.

     ??? Ngal to oel taron yerikit nìltsan.
     You hunt yerik better than me. ???

Offline Vawmataw

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Re: Comparison
« Reply #15 on: January 05, 2013, 07:33:11 am »
I think it’s just a misunderstanding here ;)

Ma Kameyu, tsmukan BE just wanted to know whether the to construct is also possible with verbs where we don’t use lu.
Yes, but I want to do more.

How would you translate '' I'm taller than you '' without using verb lu? '' I'm nicer than you ''? '' I'm more tired than you ''? '' I'm older than you ''? That's what I want to resolve and maybe what Blue Elf wants.
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Offline Plumps

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Re: Comparison
« Reply #16 on: January 05, 2013, 07:43:16 am »
But why? ???  :-\

That’s like saying ‘good-bye’ without ‘bye’ :P

Offline Alyara Arati

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Re: Comparison
« Reply #17 on: January 05, 2013, 07:45:29 am »
Also to is a particle (not adposition), so we might use it not only with nouns or pronouns and not only in nominative case.

So, if I understand correctly, one could say:  Hem to aylì'u tsranten.  Yes?  Even though there is no adjective involved at all. :)
Learn how to see.  Realize that everything connects to everything else.
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Offline Vawmataw

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Re: Comparison
« Reply #18 on: January 05, 2013, 08:04:42 am »
But why? ???  :-\

That’s like saying ‘good-bye’ without ‘bye’ :P


That's what I understood from Blue Elf, so I'm trying to make comparison without verb ''lu''. How does one make comparisons in Klingon language?

Also to is a particle (not adposition), so we might use it not only with nouns or pronouns and not only in nominative case.

So, if I understand correctly, one could say:  Hem to aylì'u tsranten.  Yes?  Even though there is no adjective involved at all. :)
You just made a comparison without verb ''lu''.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2013, 02:50:58 pm by Kameyu a Kepekmì »
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Offline Blue Elf

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Re: Comparison
« Reply #19 on: January 05, 2013, 03:22:34 pm »
Well, to make my question clear to all:
I think it’s just a misunderstanding here ;)

Ma Kameyu, tsmukan BE just wanted to know whether the to construct is also possible with verbs where we don’t use lu.
This is what I'm interested in
Quote
How would you translate '' I'm taller than you '' without using verb lu? '' I'm nicer than you ''? '' I'm more tired than you ''? '' I'm older than you ''? That's what I want to resolve and maybe what Blue Elf wants.
And this is what I'm not asking for. I don't want replace "lu" by different verb, I don't see any sense for this action (and IMHO it is not possible). If question is not clear enough, just ask.

@Plumps: thanks for example with fwa, why  I didn't figure it out myself? So simple...
Quote
     ??? Ngal to oel taron yerikit nìltsan.
     You hunt yerik better than me. ???[/size][/font]
It could be correct, but you said, that behind "to" shouldn't be case suffix used. At least it gives sense with different word order:
Ngal taron yerikit nìltsan to oe.
and slightly modified your version:
Ngal oeto taron yerikit nìltsan.
Seems there's really no space for case ending....

@Kemaweyan:
Quote
sìlpey oe tsnì kawtul ke 'ivefu tìsrawit afe' to skxirtsyìp

Actually we can modify this sentence to

  sìlpey oe tsnì kawtul ke 'ivefu tìsrawit afe' to pum a 'efu fkol ta skxirtsyìp
The second sentence looks more correct than original one, thanks!
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
"Oe tasyätxaw ulte koren za'u oehu" (Limonádový Joe)


 

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