Genitive/Possessive Pronoun Questions

Started by nebwahs, December 24, 2009, 11:11:04 PM

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nebwahs

Kaltxì,
I have a question about the use of the genitive, as I see it used in various different ways and am not too sure what form is correct.
I understood that when you use it in a sentence such as "the father of the leader", you use the genitive directly on the noun "leader". As far as I understand, this would be "sempul eyktanyä". (Please correct me if this is wrong!!)
But when I see it relating to a pronoun, such as "my father", or "the father of me", I have seen it written often as simply "sempulyä", without any mention of whose father it is. I have understood that one has to use the specific possessive pronoun relating exclusive to "me", to make it clear that it is "MY father" and not "YOUR father". In the grammar sketches, the only possessive forms of pronouns given are "ngeyä" (your) and "peyä" (his/her). Would I be correct in assuming the form for "my" would be "oeyä"? Therefore "my father" translating as "sempul oeyä"?
Irayo in advance ;D
Ben

omängum fra'uti

Have examples of where you've seen it without?

Yes, oeyä would be "my".  Though for "my father" you could also write "oe-ri sempul" in some cases with no genetive.  By making "I" be the topic of the sentence, it's implied that father is my father.
Ftxey lu nga tokx ftxey lu nga tirea? Lu oe tìkeftxo.
Listen to my Na'vi Lessons podcast!

nebwahs

One particular example comes to mind from the blog at http://tirekameyu.livejournal.com/ :
Sempulyä fkuea tsamsiyu Omatikayahu. (My father is a mighty warrior of the Omatikayhu)
Although the blogger is a beginner, and it most probably is incorrect anyway... I myself found some mistakes
Should the genitive be used with Omatikayahu, seeing as it's "OF Omatikayahu"?)
I think the correction should read: "Oe-ri sempul fkeu-a tsamsiyu Omatikayahuyä lu." Please correct!!

So in which cases would you use oeyä, then?

tute nuereime

ask the question what is the sentence talking about? if it is oe then i think you use oeyä but if it is the father then it oeri.
kaltxì peng oeru fra'uya niNa'Vi

omängum fra'uti

Sempulyä fkeua tsamsiyu Omatikayahu
father-GEN mighty-ADJ war-make-person of-blue-flute-clan

Father's might warrior warrior of the blue flute clan
So...  Father has a might warrior, not necessarily is one.  So yeah, that's wrong.
Ftxey lu nga tokx ftxey lu nga tirea? Lu oe tìkeftxo.
Listen to my Na'vi Lessons podcast!

nebwahs

The guy who wrote it said the translation was "My father is a mighty warrior of the Omatikayhu."
Clearly, the Na'vi sentence doesn't mean that; how would you say it? Is my translation (Oe-ri sempul fkeu-a tsamsiyu Omatikayahuyä lu.) more apt?

tute nuereime

well that brings up the case that because -ri signifies the topic does the lu refer to "oe" or "sempul"
kaltxì peng oeru fra'uya niNa'Vi

wisnij

#7
Quote from: nebwahs on December 25, 2009, 12:50:15 AM
The guy who wrote it said the translation was "My father is a mighty warrior of the Omatikayhu."
Clearly, the Na'vi sentence doesn't mean that; how would you say it? Is my translation (Oe-ri sempul fkeu-a tsamsiyu Omatikayahuyä lu.) more apt?

Perhaps:

Oeyä sempul lu fkeua tsamsiyu Omatikayayä
Wé cildra biddaþ þé, éalá láréow, þæt þú taéce ús sprecan rihte, forþám ungelaérede wé sindon, and gewæmmodlíce we sprecaþ.

nebwahs

tute nuereime: That's why I was confused that oe-ri can be used as a possessive pronoun... surely oeyä would be clearer so it's obvious we are talking about the father being a warrior?

wisnij: Surely the position of lu doesn't matter as it can come anywhere in the sentence (word order flexibility etc.)?

wisnij

Quote from: nebwahs on December 25, 2009, 12:56:34 AM
tute nuereime: That's why I was confused that oe-ri can be used as a possessive pronoun... surely oeyä would be clearer so it's obvious we are talking about the father being a warrior?

wisnij: Surely the position of lu doesn't matter as it can come anywhere in the sentence (word order flexibility etc.)?
Maybe.  We don't know for sure what constraints there are, whether syntactic or simply conventional.  That said, my main point was about the spelling of Omatikaya.
Wé cildra biddaþ þé, éalá láréow, þæt þú taéce ús sprecan rihte, forþám ungelaérede wé sindon, and gewæmmodlíce we sprecaþ.

nebwahs

Aah, yes that's true. From what I've seen, the verb seems to come last more often... I simply wrote it like that as that was how it was spelled in the blog... point noted!

tute nuereime

it probably would be mì Omatikaya or "in the blue flute clan"

also what i believe that when the subject is something in relation to you but you are not doing it then it is oeyä (my father hunted, my shirt is stained) but if it is something in relation to you but you still did it then it is oeri (my nose is itchy, i broke my arm, i drive my car)
kaltxì peng oeru fra'uya niNa'Vi

nebwahs


tute nuereime

now the question i have is do you have oeri oeyä or oe in the sentence i ride my ikran? i think it would it be
oeri makto oeyä ikran     or     oe makto oeyä ikran
kaltxì peng oeru fra'uya niNa'Vi

wisnij

Quote from: tute nuereime on December 25, 2009, 01:22:51 AM
now the question i have is do you have oeri oeyä or oe in the sentence i ride my ikran? i think it would it be
oeri makto oeyä ikran     or     oe makto oeyä ikran

"Ride" is transitive, so in this case you need the agent and patient case tags:

Oel ikranti oeyä makto
Wé cildra biddaþ þé, éalá láréow, þæt þú taéce ús sprecan rihte, forþám ungelaérede wé sindon, and gewæmmodlíce we sprecaþ.

tute nuereime

i ikran my ride? wouldnt it make more sense if it was

Oel makto oeyä ikranti or oeyä ikranti Oel makto

or can it be written as just

oeyä ikranti makto
kaltxì peng oeru fra'uya niNa'Vi

nebwahs

Ok, so can someone clarify the difference between -l and -ri?

Eywayä Irrtok

Quote from: nebwahs on December 25, 2009, 01:31:31 AM
Ok, so can someone clarify the difference between -l and -ri?

From my understading, you use -l in a sentence that has no "defined" topic, and you use -ri when that word IS the topic
Tìng mikyun nìltsan, fì'u fya'o ne tslayam letok lu -- mune sì mune tsìng lu.

wisnij

#18
Quote from: tute nuereime on December 25, 2009, 01:30:56 AM
i ikran my ride? wouldnt it make more sense if it was

Oel makto oeyä ikranti or oeyä ikranti Oel makto

The presence of case tags frees up the word order considerably.  In any event we have attested sentences in the SOV order, and with a -yä marked word following its head.

Quote from: tute nuereime on December 25, 2009, 01:30:56 AM
or can it be written as just

oeyä ikranti makto

Maybe, if Na'vi is pro-drop and allows doing that with a transitive verb.  That's another thing we don't know for sure, though.

Quote from: nebwahs on December 25, 2009, 01:31:31 AM
Ok, so can someone clarify the difference between -l and -ri?

-l is the agentive case.  Roughly speaking, the agent is whatever is doing or causing an action, and the patient is whatever is experiencing or otherwise being the target of that action.  So in this case, the speaker is the agent (since he's the one doing the riding) and the ikran is the patient (since it's the one being ridden).

-ri is the topic.  Roughly speaking, the topic is whatever the rest of the clause is talking about.  The topic is not the subject of a verb; for that you either use -l for the subject of a transitive verb (the agent) or no suffix for the subject of an intransitive verb.  As Frommer says:

Quote
The Topical form of a noun or pronoun establishes a loose semantic connection to the clause and has a wide range of uses. It may be translated along the lines of "with regard to," "as for," "turning to," "concerning," etc., but it can also appear where a genitive or dative might be expected.
Wé cildra biddaþ þé, éalá láréow, þæt þú taéce ús sprecan rihte, forþám ungelaérede wé sindon, and gewæmmodlíce we sprecaþ.

tute nuereime

this is what i got you use -l when you have the subject do something to another subject. the other subject would have -ti. when you use -i you have to have a noun using -ti. you use -ri when you need to clairify which noun is the topic of the sentence.
kaltxì peng oeru fra'uya niNa'Vi