Author Topic: How to "throw at"?  (Read 1213 times)

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Offline Kame Ayyo’koti

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How to "throw at"?
« on: February 14, 2015, 03:07:28 pm »
I've been wondering how to say "to throw at," or if it's even possible. Some ideas:

  • tsre’i tute-o-ru
    Wouldn't this mean to throw to, as in to toss it to someone (without intending to hit them)?
  • tsre’i wä sute-o
    wä+ is meant to emphasize opposition to something, so I like this best. In English we can say for example "throw sth. against the wall," so perhaps it could be used the same here.
  • tsre’i ne tute-o
    ne can emphasize direction, but it seems ambiguous to me. I don't know whether to consider its meaning closer to -ru or wä+ above. Perhaps it could be used in sentences without aggressive intent, like "threw it to the north."
  • *tsre’i ro sute-o
    I don't consider this correct. ro+ indicates to me the thrower's position, not the target.

What do you guys think?
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Offline Tìtstewan

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Re: How to "throw at"?
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2015, 03:21:51 pm »
Eltur tìtxen seiyi!

I see some interesting meanings:

-ru:
Oel tsre'i tskxet ngaru.
I throw a stone to you.
^
This example sounds not negativ. It would mean that I throw a stone to you, but with no attempt to hit you.

wä+:
Oel tsre'i tskxet wä nga.
I throw a stone against you.
^
This one, sounds indeed like an negativ action. I throw a stone against you and you will have no benefit of that action -> it means an attempt to hit you.

ne:
Oel tsre'i tskxet ne nga.
I throw a stone to (direction) you.
^
Here the same like the wä+ example, but it sounds more neutral to me.

---
These are just my thought. :)

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Offline Blue Elf

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Re: How to "throw at"?
« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2015, 03:58:02 pm »
My first idea would be:
Oel tsre'i tskxet ne nga, but really it sounds like I throw it in direction to you with no intention to hit.
Ro doesn't work, it is locative adposition:
Oel tsre'i tskxet ro hilvan would mean I throw stone while I was at place near river, but not necessarily I threw it into the river (it's job for nemfa)
So probably is best solution, although I'm not sure is fully correct. Simple dative is IMHO not enough, some adposition is necessary.
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Offline Vawmataw

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Re: How to "throw at"?
« Reply #3 on: February 14, 2015, 04:05:26 pm »
wä+:
Oel tsre'i tskxet wä nga.
I throw a stone against you.
^
This one, sounds indeed like an negativ action. I throw a stone against you and you will have no benefit of that action -> it means an attempt to hit you.
Hmmmmmm... It means that ''I'' attack ''you'' by throwing a stone. Maybe. :)

ne:
Oel tsre'i tskxet ne nga.
I throw a stone to (direction) you.
^
Here the same like the wä+ example, but it sounds more neutral to me.
Better, but as Blue Elf said, it doesn't mean it will hit ''you''.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2015, 06:36:16 pm by Vawmataw »
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Offline Tìtstewan

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Re: How to "throw at"?
« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2015, 04:28:52 pm »
Do I missed something? ???
The scheme of my example above is X-ìl <transitive-verb> Y-it Z-ru

Oel tsre'i tskxet ngaru.
I throw a stone to you.
DE: Ich werfe dir einen Stein.

blue = subject/agentive
purple = object/patientive
teal = dative

Here another example:

Pol tìng pukit nantangur
He gives a book to the viperwolf.



I am not sure if I would use this example:

1) Oel tsre'i tskxet wä nga.
    I throw a stone against you.

or this

2) Oel tsre'i tskxet ne nga.
    I throw a stone to (direction) you.

1 implies that an object will thrown in opposion of / against someone. There could be an germanic influence...
2 means only that a stone is thrown to someone's direction. hmmmm...

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Offline Wllìm

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Re: How to "throw at"?
« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2015, 04:33:28 pm »
Good question!  :D Here are my two cents:

Dative
The equivalent in English is "I throw him a stone" as parallel to "I give him a stone". (This also works in Dutch, for example: "ik gooi hem een steen".) This seems to imply in Dutch at least that there is no negative intent, like Tìtstewan said. However, I don't know whether the Na'vi dative is flexible enough for this: can we use the dative with verbs that do not strictly mean "giving"? That's a nice question :)

ne
That would mean "towards". This is also what you'd use normally in Dutch for either negative or positive intent: "ik gooi een steen naar hem" ("I throw a stone to(wards) him"). In Dutch, context needs to disambiguate intent. This seems to me a safe option :)


Hmmm, this somehow sounds wrong to me... It sounds to more like there is a stone-throwing competition or something going on ;D ("I throw a stone against him" as in "we compete in throwing stones") Or what Vawmataw says, that you really attack the other person...

In my opinion, ne is the best option here, since I'm not convinced that the dative is allowed, and IMO it would only signify positive intent if it were allowed  :)
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Offline Vawmataw

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Re: How to "throw at"?
« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2015, 06:35:47 pm »
Forget what I said about the dative. :) ;)

Dative
The equivalent in English is "I throw him a stone" as parallel to "I give him a stone". (This also works in Dutch, for example: "ik gooi hem een steen".) This seems to imply in Dutch at least that there is no negative intent, like Tìtstewan said. However, I don't know whether the Na'vi dative is flexible enough for this: can we use the dative with verbs that do not strictly mean "giving"? That's a nice question :)
I agree with you. We should ask Karyu Pawl.
Same thing in French: Je te lance une roche.


EDIT: I have a weird idea: Oel toltem ngat tskxefa. The meaning is a bit different, but you get a similar idea.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2015, 06:52:58 pm by Vawmataw »
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Offline Tìtstewan

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Re: How to "throw at"?
« Reply #7 on: February 14, 2015, 07:53:03 pm »
Well, after taking an aspirine (darn that headache) and talking a bit in FB about it, I would say that the best solution for throw at X is to use ne, like this mentioned example:

tsre’i ne tuteo
throw at someone.

or,

Oel tsre'i tskxet ne nga.
I throw a stone to (direction) you.

----

The option with the dative is grammatically correct, but I am uncomfortable with it. It sounds uncommon.
As for the option with wä+, I would use it only if the action is meant to be aggressive.
And finlly, the idea with ro+, it's definely incorrect.

----

Oel toltem ngat tskxefa.
Nope.
toltem means an action that is related to weapons like bows or guns. It doesn't cover the meaning of "thow at X". If one would use takuk instead toltem, it would sound more aggressive than the option with wä+, btw.

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Offline Vawmataw

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Re: How to "throw at"?
« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2015, 08:00:41 pm »
Oh, sorry. :(
I agree that X tsre'o ne Y is the best solution now.
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Offline Kame Ayyo’koti

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Re: How to "throw at"?
« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2015, 07:01:44 am »
Dative
The equivalent in English is "I throw him a stone" as parallel to "I give him a stone".
That's also true.

I have a weird idea: Oel toltem ngat tskxefa. The meaning is a bit different, but you get a similar idea.
I really like this, but for "shooting" someone with a sling. Perhaps we could even say toltem tuteoti tukrufa when using an atlatl. :P

But that's a whole different discussion. </offtopic>

I would like it if Paul clarified this for us. But for now I like the idea of using ne- as the more general term for "at" (with or without aggressive intent), and using wä+ to unambiguously imply intent to harm.
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Offline Tìtstewan

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Re: How to "throw at"?
« Reply #10 on: February 15, 2015, 07:13:15 am »
I would like it if Paul clarified this for us.
That can be arranged. :)
I'm going to add this question (using these three examples) in an email to him together with new word suggestions.

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Offline Blue Elf

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Re: How to "throw at"?
« Reply #11 on: February 15, 2015, 10:43:33 am »
I would like it if Paul clarified this for us.
That can be arranged. :)
I'm going to add this question (using these three examples) in an email to him together with new word suggestions.
What is LEP here for? :) I hope we'll get answer, but so far grammar question were left unnoticed....
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Offline Tìtstewan

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Re: How to "throw at"?
« Reply #12 on: February 15, 2015, 10:48:01 am »
I have a plan for this question, but there is no garantee, of course. :)

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Offline Tìtstewan

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Re: How to "throw at"?
« Reply #13 on: March 02, 2015, 04:10:50 pm »
I've splitted the new part and moved it to the language update, because it should be there. :)
« Last Edit: March 06, 2015, 01:54:00 pm by Tìtstewan »

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Offline Blue Elf

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Re: How to "throw at"?
« Reply #14 on: March 06, 2015, 01:52:33 pm »
I've splitted the new part and moved it to the language update, because it should be there. :)
link is not correct - it contains only http:// part....
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Offline Tìtstewan

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Re: How to "throw at"?
« Reply #15 on: March 06, 2015, 01:53:42 pm »
Oopsi, fixed.

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