Ke in Modal Constructions

Started by Tìtstewan, January 03, 2014, 01:48:02 PM

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Tìtstewan

Quote from: Alyara Arati on January 03, 2014, 12:35:03 PM
As a rule, ke always comes directly before the verb.  I have always understood this to apply to the first verb in a modal construction.  I have never seen it otherwise.
I did spend some time looking for an example where this rule was used in a modal construction, but could not find one.  However, I am very bad at searching. :-X
I know that rule, but in this case are two verbs, and that confuss me.

It seems that I have to negate the modal verb only, but I can't find any source for this:
Oe ke tsun tsive'a ayrelit.

Interesting is, if I use kea (kea need negation of the verbs) in a sentence:
Oe ke tsun tsive'a kea ayrelit.  <- I believe this is the 'more' correct one
or
Oe ke tsun ke tsive'a kea ayrelit.

I think, I confuss me totally now... :-X

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Blue Elf

Quote from: Tìtstewan on January 03, 2014, 11:52:15 AM
Quote from: Blue Elf on January 03, 2014, 11:33:22 AM
Quote from: Tìtstewan on January 03, 2014, 09:11:36 AM
Oe ke tsun ke tsive'a ayngeyä ayrelit...
Eltur tìtxen si. Pesenge oe tsun ivinan tsat?
I can't find any official source, but I'd would say that you must negate modal verb:
I can't see it -> Oe ke tsun tsat tsive'a
We do not use:
*I can not see it -> *Oe tsun tsat ke tsive'a

QuoteOe ke tsun tsive'a kea ayrelit.  <- I believe this is the 'more' correct one
Perfectly correct
Quote*Oe ke tsun ke tsive'a kea ayrelit.
As in modal construction only modal verb is negated, ke is wrong here.

....although, such construction could be used for some extra emphasis. For example, you see something what strikes your eyes, it's not possible to not see it. Friend asks you: Can you see it?
And you answer: I can't not see it (it's not possible to overlook it) -> Oe ke tsun tsat ke tsive'a
But such usage should be approved by Paul first....
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
"Oe tasyätxaw ulte koren za'u oehu" (Limonádový Joe)


`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

I am almost certain that the correct rendering in nearly every case (if not every case) is for ke to before the modal verb. I saw Tìtstewan's original post, and it seemed so glaring wrong just from a meaning standpoint, I would have commented on if if you all hadn't (Maybe it it the least asmbigious when viewed from an English speaker's viewpoint. I don't know enough about your native languages to know that.). Even in the case of "I can't see that", the correct translation should be Oe ke tsun tsive'a kea tsat. Part of understanding this is to look at the meaning of tsun not as 'can', but 'be able'. The kea is there because of the requirement for double negatives, something I still do not fully understand.

Yawey ngahu!
pamrel si ro [email protected]

Blue Elf

Quote from: `Eylan Ayfalulukanä on January 03, 2014, 02:58:32 PM
Even in the case of "I can't see that", the correct translation should be Oe ke tsun tsive'a kea tsat.
No. Tsat here has literal meaning "that". *Kea tsat would mean "no that", it has no sense. If you want to say "I can't see anything", it's work for ke'u: Oe ke tsun tsive'a ke'ut.
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
"Oe tasyätxaw ulte koren za'u oehu" (Limonádový Joe)


Tìtstewan

#4
Ma 'Eylan Ayfalulukanä:
Oe ke tsun tsive'a ayngeyä ayrelit...
EN: I can not see your images...
DE: Ich kann eure Bilder nicht sehen...
or
DE: Ich kann nicht eure Bilder sehen...

I'm going to write an E-mail to Pawl about this...

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Tanri

The idea behind double negatives is, in very short words, that if the object is negated, the verb must be as well, but not vice versa.

Oel ke tse'a kea yerikit - I don't see any yerik / I see no yerik     (double negation)
Oel ke tse'a tsayerikit - I don't see that yerik     (negated verb only)

The hard thing is to see the need for negated object, because English doesn't use them.
Tätxawyu akì'ong.

Plumps

Quote from: Tìtstewan on January 03, 2014, 01:48:02 PM
It seems that I have to negate the modal verb only, but I can't find any source for this:
Oe ke tsun tsive'a ayrelit.

Interesting is, if I use kea (kea need negation of the verbs) in a sentence:
Oe ke tsun tsive'a kea ayrelit.  <- I believe this is the 'more' correct one
or
Oe ke tsun ke tsive'a kea ayrelit.

I think, I confuss me totally now... :-X

Ke tslam oel yayayrti.
Ke tsole'a oel kawkrr lì'ukìngit a tsamì lì'u alu ke kllkxem muvea kemlì'ueo. Tsaw *ke si txina lì'ukìngur.



Tanri

Kxawm fkeytok tìtsunsluo akangay fte lì'uti alu "ke" sivar hu muvea kemlì'u. Fìtìkenongìri nga fpìl pefya?:
* Tstu sìsyi menarir oeyä, nìngay oe kan ke nivìn futa ngal tsakemit neykayui. - I'll definitely close my eyes, I really intend to not look how you'll mess that.
fu
* Tengkrr tskxekeng si, oe nulnew ke tivul nìwin nìhawng. - While training, I prefer to not run excessively fast.
::)
Tätxawyu akì'ong.

Plumps

Fpìl oel futa lu txele *style*-ä. Lu tenga ral na: ... oe ke kan nivìn futa ngal ... '... I don't intend to look how you ...'
Slä, kxawm sweylu txo fkol sivar lahea lì'ut alu futa: ... oel kan futa ke nivìn futa ngal ... '... I intend that (I) don't watch how you ...' tengfya lì'ukìng new oel futa nga kivä 'I want you to go'.
:-\ :-\ :-\



Kemaweyan

We have zenke (zene + ke), so it's not a rule that we must use ke before modal verb only. Nga zenke tsakem sivi is correct, nga ke zene tsakem sivi is correct too. And I don't think that tsun ke is a mistake. Maybe it's difficult that create an example where is would make a sense. What about this:

 Krra tsole'a oel Uniltìrantokx a relit arusìkx nì'awve, fparmìl oe tsawteri luke tìftang. Ngian set tsun oe ke fpivìl nìngay...

In Russian it's simply могу не, but I can't express this meaning in English. Something like «I can do this → [not thinking]». It's interesting question how to say it in English. I searched in Google and there are forums where people ask about this. But there is not an answer :(
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Plumps

Quote from: Kemaweyan on January 03, 2014, 05:45:27 PM
We have zenke (zene + ke), so it's not a rule that we must use ke before modal verb only. Nga zenke tsakem sivi is correct, nga ke zene tsakem sivi is correct too. And I don't think that tsun ke is a mistake.

The problem here is that zenke has taken on a meaning of its own; ke zene 'not have to' and zenke 'must not, not allowed to' are different in meaning. They are not synonymous.

Kemaweyan

Right. But ke tsun and tsun ke are not synonyms too. Tsun ke is similar to ke zene, but it would be strange to say ke zene fpivìl in my example (though grammatically correct).
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Tìtstewan

Ma Plumps, I was confused if ke should be only before the first verb or it is possible for the second verb too (apparently not). I've searched on Na'viteri, and I've read Pawl's Na'vi sentences and interestingly he likes to use modal construction like this
X (ke) verb1 Y verb2.
Fìtaronyutsyìp ke tsun ke'ut stivä'nì.

This (worthless) little hunter can't catch anything.

Interestingly, the Na'vi modal construction look very similar like the Romanian modal construction,
Oel ke tsun tsive'a ngat.
Eu nu pot să văd pe tine.
I can not see you.




Quote from: Kemaweyan on January 03, 2014, 05:45:27 PM
We have zenke (zene + ke), so it's not a rule that we must use ke before modal verb only. Nga zenke tsakem sivi is correct, nga ke zene tsakem sivi is correct too.
Is this productive to attach ke behind a verb just like an adposition? :-\
I'm afraid, but I have never seen this way.


(I been ninja'd twice :P)

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Kemaweyan

Quote from: Tìtstewan on January 03, 2014, 07:19:30 PM
Quote from: Kemaweyan on January 03, 2014, 05:45:27 PM
We have zenke (zene + ke), so it's not a rule that we must use ke before modal verb only. Nga zenke tsakem sivi is correct, nga ke zene tsakem sivi is correct too.
Is this productive to attach ke behind a verb just like an adposition? :-\
I'm afraid, but I have never seen this way.


(I been ninja'd twice :P)

No. Zenke has a different meaning. Also it is possible to say zene ke (same as zenke):

 zene kea uniltìranyu ke ziva'u fìtseng (from the movie)

I have an idea. We know that tsun means «can» and «may», so to permit something we could say:

 Nga tsun fì'ut ivinan.

But how to permit to do not something?

 Nga tsun fì'ut ke ivinan.
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Alyara Arati

#14
This is really fascinating.  I'm enjoying the discussion a great deal.  But should it not be its own thread at this point? ???

I don't have the power to split the thread, but maybe this could be continued somewhere besides Beginner Chat. :-\
Learn how to see.  Realize that everything connects to everything else.
~ Leonardo da Vinci

Tìtstewan

'ä'! Oel tse'a kemit a soli oe fìtseng... :-[ :-[ :-[

I would propose to split this thread....it starts with this post... :-[

...oeru txoa livu.

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Kemaweyan

Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Tìtstewan

Quote from: Alyara Arati on January 03, 2014, 07:38:07 PM
I don't have the power to split the thread, but maybe this could be continued somewhere besides Beginner Chat. :-\
I've wrote a PM to Taronyu. :)

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Niri Te

Quote from: Kemaweyan on January 03, 2014, 05:45:27 PM
In Russian it's simply могу не, but I can't express this meaning in English. Something like «I can do this → [not thinking]». It's interesting question how to say it in English. I searched in Google and there are forums where people ask about this. But there is not an answer :(

If you mean "I can do this without thinking", you could say that it is "Second Nature" to you.
Tokx alu tawtute, Tirea Le Na'vi

Kemaweyan

#19
No. The meaning is "I must not do it, but I may". So it is not forbidden or impossible that I'll not do that action. But it does not mean that I shouldn't do that...
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D