Na'vi Linguistics: Case

Started by wm.annis, June 22, 2010, 08:36:07 PM

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Kemaweyan

Quote from: Tirea Aean on October 20, 2012, 01:03:55 PM
Quote from: Ataeghane on October 20, 2012, 11:03:45 AM
What cases should I use when I want to say e.g. "Teach me your ways"?

Kar oeru ngeyä fya'ot.
or
Ngeyä fya'ori kar oeti.
or any other combination?

The first one.

The structure for kar, I believe, is the same as that of tìng:

Karyul numeyuru säomumit kar

And it was confirmed here http://forum.learnnavi.org/news-announcements/christmas-song-ninavi-on-youtube/

QuoteThe lyrics are Frommer proved.

Quotengal keiar oeru futa
meoauniaeal
frakrr awngati fmereial

Quote from: Tirea Aean on October 20, 2012, 01:03:55 PM
EDIT: Although that second one could probably maybe work too.

I think no. If direct object of kar is the subject of teaching, then it can't be a person :)
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Ataeghane

Yes, thanks to both of you.

QuoteAnd it was confirmed here http://forum.learnnavi.org/news-announcements/christmas-song-ninavi-on-youtube/
I believe it would be much simpler if the whole of our knowledge was put somewhere in one place. It'd be much easier to browse.

Oer wivìntxu ngal oey keyeyt krr a tse'a sat. Frakrr.

Tirea Aean

Quote from: Ataeghane on October 21, 2012, 12:05:48 PM
Yes, thanks to both of you.

QuoteAnd it was confirmed here http://forum.learnnavi.org/news-announcements/christmas-song-ninavi-on-youtube/
I believe it would be much simpler if the whole of our knowledge was put somewhere in one place. It'd be much easier to browse.

you mean like the Horen Lì'fyayä leNa'i document? Our Wiki is supposed to satisfy that need as well..

Ataeghane

Pretty much like Horen Lì'fyayä leNa'vi, but do we find there these particular rule about how to use "kar" there?

Oer wivìntxu ngal oey keyeyt krr a tse'a sat. Frakrr.

Tirea Aean

well I mostly just assumed it's used the same way as in English, same as give and ask. And it turned out to be so.

Teacher teaches something to a student.
Giver gives something to a recipient.
Asker asks someone a question.

I think there should maybe be a post or entry in there that includes all the verbs which can have this structure:

Agent [vtr.] dative patient.

wm.annis

Quote from: Ataeghane on October 21, 2012, 04:30:25 PM
Pretty much like Horen Lì'fyayä leNa'vi, but do we find there these particular rule about how to use "kar" there?

That belongs in a dictionary well-stocked with examples.

Tirea Aean

Quote from: wm.annis on October 21, 2012, 07:02:35 PM
Quote from: Ataeghane on October 21, 2012, 04:30:25 PM
Pretty much like Horen Lì'fyayä leNa'vi, but do we find there these particular rule about how to use "kar" there?

That belongs in a dictionary well-stocked with examples.

Which makes me wonder if there is a nice pretty way to add examples to the current dictionary... Doesn't appear to be... I mean, we could, but it would just look like each word has a massive definition.

Plumps

Quote from: Tirea Aean on October 21, 2012, 07:28:44 PM
Quote from: wm.annis on October 21, 2012, 07:02:35 PM
Quote from: Ataeghane on October 21, 2012, 04:30:25 PM
Pretty much like Horen Lì'fyayä leNa'vi, but do we find there these particular rule about how to use "kar" there?

That belongs in a dictionary well-stocked with examples.

Which makes me wonder if there is a nice pretty way to add examples to the current dictionary... Doesn't appear to be... I mean, we could, but it would just look like each word has a massive definition.

There was a brief discussion in the dictionary thread about that and I believe William showed part of an entry how he imagined it.

I would very much like to see that. Especially with more and more intricate grammatical features that are unfamiliar to people it's a good way to check up on the usage (something that dict-navi.com tries to achieve over time with example sentences). It's a messy work but in the end I think we all will gain from it. Not every entry needs an example, mind you but with verbs, I think, it's essential.

Tirea Aean

Quote from: Plumps on October 22, 2012, 04:50:32 AM
Quote from: Tirea Aean on October 21, 2012, 07:28:44 PM
Quote from: wm.annis on October 21, 2012, 07:02:35 PM
Quote from: Ataeghane on October 21, 2012, 04:30:25 PM
Pretty much like Horen Lì'fyayä leNa'vi, but do we find there these particular rule about how to use "kar" there?

That belongs in a dictionary well-stocked with examples.

Which makes me wonder if there is a nice pretty way to add examples to the current dictionary... Doesn't appear to be... I mean, we could, but it would just look like each word has a massive definition.

There was a brief discussion in the dictionary thread about that and I believe William showed part of an entry how he imagined it.

I would very much like to see that. Especially with more and more intricate grammatical features that are unfamiliar to people it's a good way to check up on the usage (something that dict-navi.com tries to achieve over time with example sentences). It's a messy work but in the end I think we all will gain from it. Not every entry needs an example, mind you but with verbs, I think, it's essential.


And with things like a

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

I know of what example you refer to, and it is impresive. Wm Annis's suggestion for an alternative dictionary format is awesome. I am also working on adopting something similar for the Dothraki dictionary.

Yawey ngahu!
pamrel si ro [email protected]

Aonkxum Te Tunkxor

#30
I've noticed when adding "-l" to "oe," the stress changes from "O-e" to "o-EL." Does this happen to other words where the stress changes places with a case (and maybe even with infixes) or is this an exception?

Edit:  Also, does a stress get added after a case or infix is added if the word doesn't have one before? Ex: "Puk" to "Pukìri."

wm.annis

Quote from: Aonkxum Te Tunkxor on January 15, 2024, 02:46:02 PMI've noticed when adding "-l" to "oe," the stress changes from "O-e" to "o-EL." Does this happen to other words where the stress changes places with a case (and maybe even with infixes) or is this an exception?

Forms of oe are unique in this change. Note that the resulting pronunciation is as though it was spelled wel.

QuoteEdit:  Also, does a stress get added after a case or infix is added if the word doesn't have one before? Ex: "Puk" to "Pukìri."

Except for the oe situation, case endings (or plural marking, etc.) don't change the stress of a word. It should be pukìri.

Aonkxum Te Tunkxor

Irayo :)

Does pu in puk gain a stress with an infix or case? I noticed puk on its own doesn't have one (probably because there is only one vowel)? If so are other words with only one vowel that are like that too?

Tìtstewan

The stress on puk should remain on pu. As puk is a noun there are no infixes that could go in. There are a lot of words with just one vowel, just check out the dictionary. :)

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wm.annis

Quote from: Aonkxum Te Tunkxor on January 17, 2024, 09:44:54 PMDoes pu in puk gain a stress with an infix or case? I noticed puk on its own doesn't have one (probably because there is only one vowel)? If so are other words with only one vowel that are like that too?

Generally we don't mark stress on words when it's completely predictable where it goes. So, several of the community dictionaries and documentation won't bother marking the stress of puk because there's only one place it can go.

Aonkxum Te Tunkxor