Author Topic: Na'vi Linguistics: Free Word Order  (Read 7099 times)

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Offline wm.annis

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Re: Na'vi Linguistics: Free Word Order
« Reply #20 on: September 08, 2011, 10:28:12 am »
I have taken the liberty of creating a Wiki page on these restrictions.  I included the topical rule, and added one for si verbs.

But did anyone ask a confirmation? ???

When his practice is to do the same thing always (the only exception in one song), I'm not sure it's a high priority confirmation.  Putting the topical first is also consistent with the overwhelming majority of Human languages.
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Offline Neyn'ite Te Tsahìk Txeptsyìp'ite

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Re: Na'vi Linguistics: Free Word Order
« Reply #21 on: September 08, 2011, 03:59:14 pm »
basically what you're saying is that Na'vi sentences are free word order but to a certain point, that some things have rules to where they go. as in, tute kawng- evil person- person being first because the noun goes before the describing word, srane?
this is not good example, as you can use both kawnga tute and tute akawng (don't forget attributive -a-)

??? in Le'eylan's lessons it says that the describing word goes after the noun.
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oel ayngati kameie, ma aysmukan sì aysmuke, Eywa ayngahu.
oeyä tsmukan, ma Nick, oeru ngaytxoa livu. nìmwey tsurokx. nga yawne lu oer.

Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: Na'vi Linguistics: Free Word Order
« Reply #22 on: September 08, 2011, 05:27:57 pm »
basically what you're saying is that Na'vi sentences are free word order but to a certain point, that some things have rules to where they go. as in, tute kawng- evil person- person being first because the noun goes before the describing word, srane?
this is not good example, as you can use both kawnga tute and tute akawng (don't forget attributive -a-)

??? in Le'eylan's lessons it says that the describing word goes after the noun.

Remind me to go in and fix that. (there are some other misinformations in them too. They're slightly out of date)

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Offline Neyn'ite Te Tsahìk Txeptsyìp'ite

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Re: Na'vi Linguistics: Free Word Order
« Reply #23 on: September 08, 2011, 05:40:13 pm »
is there anything that is required to be first when it comes to words/sentences?
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oel ayngati kameie, ma aysmukan sì aysmuke, Eywa ayngahu.
oeyä tsmukan, ma Nick, oeru ngaytxoa livu. nìmwey tsurokx. nga yawne lu oer.

Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: Na'vi Linguistics: Free Word Order
« Reply #24 on: September 08, 2011, 06:52:25 pm »
is there anything that is required to be first when it comes to words/sentences?

I outlined the word-order restrictions here:

current restrictions against "FREE" word order:

1. ke must always go directly before the verb, kea must go before its noun.

2. Attributive/non-predicative adjectives must either go directly before or directly after the noun they describe:
you can use both kawnga tute and tute akawng (don't forget attributive -a-)

3. Possessives/genitives must either go before directly before or directly after their possessed noun, except that an adjective describing the noun may come in between if necessary:

oeyä 'eylan = 'eylan oeyä,
oeyä sìltsana 'eylan = 'eylan asìltsan oeyä

4. Ma must go directly before the name who is being addressed.

5. Srak(e) may (as far as I know) only go either at the very beginning or very end of a yes/no question.

6. The words ko and nang must only go at the end of the sentence.

7. Modal verbs can only come somewhere before the secondary verb; the secondary verb cannot happen somewhere before the modal:

nga yivom tsun = wrong
tsun nga yivom / nga tsun yivom / tsun yivom nga = correct forms.

As far as I can remember off the top of my head, these are the known word order restrictions.

EDIT: to more directly answer your question, As for things which MUST come first, I think there is just ke before verbs and kea before nouns. (Many of us suspect topical, but that has yet to be officially confirmed, as you see above in this discussion. ;) )
« Last Edit: September 08, 2011, 06:56:54 pm by Tirea Aean »

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Offline Kemaweyan

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Re: Na'vi Linguistics: Free Word Order
« Reply #25 on: September 08, 2011, 07:55:43 pm »
Many of us suspect topical, but that has yet to be officially confirmed, as you see above in this discussion. ;)

Already confirmed :)
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Offline Ftiafpi

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Re: Na'vi Linguistics: Free Word Order
« Reply #26 on: September 08, 2011, 08:25:57 pm »
That was fast...

Offline 'Oma Tirea

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Re: Na'vi Linguistics: Free Word Order
« Reply #27 on: September 08, 2011, 11:09:53 pm »
EDIT: to more directly answer your question, As for things which MUST come first, I think there is just ke before verbs and kea before nouns. (Many of us suspect topical, but that has yet to be officially confirmed, as you see above in this discussion. ;) )

Rä'ä tswiva'...

Also, as noted on Na'viteri, when a noun with a genitive is on the end of two other nouns, regardless of clause, context may be required, as it isn't clear what is being posessed.

N.K.: Hì'ia fwampop oeyä 'eylan asìltsan lu.  Luckily fko can expect this to be rare.

[img]http://swokaikran.skxawng.lu/sigbar/nwotd.php?p=2b[/img]

ÌTXTSTXRR!!

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Offline Blue Elf

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Re: Na'vi Linguistics: Free Word Order
« Reply #28 on: September 09, 2011, 01:14:53 am »
Also, as noted on Na'viteri, when a noun with a genitive is on the end of two other nouns, regardless of clause, context may be required, as it isn't clear what is being posessed.

N.K.: Hì'ia fwampop oeyä 'eylan asìltsan lu.  Luckily fko can expect this to be rare.
Exactly. That's why I've written my example in nonconfusing way. I think it's better to avoid such word order (if no context available).
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
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Offline Neyn'ite Te Tsahìk Txeptsyìp'ite

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Re: Na'vi Linguistics: Free Word Order
« Reply #29 on: September 12, 2011, 09:18:55 am »
is there anything that is required to be first when it comes to words/sentences?

I outlined the word-order restrictions here:

current restrictions against "FREE" word order:

1. ke must always go directly before the verb, kea must go before its noun.

2. Attributive/non-predicative adjectives must either go directly before or directly after the noun they describe:
you can use both kawnga tute and tute akawng (don't forget attributive -a-)

3. Possessives/genitives must either go before directly before or directly after their possessed noun, except that an adjective describing the noun may come in between if necessary:

oeyä 'eylan = 'eylan oeyä,
oeyä sìltsana 'eylan = 'eylan asìltsan oeyä

4. Ma must go directly before the name who is being addressed.

5. Srak(e) may (as far as I know) only go either at the very beginning or very end of a yes/no question.

6. The words ko and nang must only go at the end of the sentence.

7. Modal verbs can only come somewhere before the secondary verb; the secondary verb cannot happen somewhere before the modal:

nga yivom tsun = wrong
tsun nga yivom / nga tsun yivom / tsun yivom nga = correct forms.

As far as I can remember off the top of my head, these are the known word order restrictions.

EDIT: to more directly answer your question, As for things which MUST come first, I think there is just ke before verbs and kea before nouns. (Many of us suspect topical, but that has yet to be officially confirmed, as you see above in this discussion. ;) )

when saying something like 'oeyä sìltsana 'eylan', can the 'a' at the end of sìltsana be put in the beginning? if so, does it matter if it is asìltsan or sìltsana? ulte can I tuen 'oeyä sìltsana 'eylan' into 'oeyä 'eylan sìltsana'?

ulte lì'upe 'modal'? lu oeyä Na'vi eyawr?
old gallery link?id=2025[/img]


oel ayngati kameie, ma aysmukan sì aysmuke, Eywa ayngahu.
oeyä tsmukan, ma Nick, oeru ngaytxoa livu. nìmwey tsurokx. nga yawne lu oer.

Offline wm.annis

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Re: Na'vi Linguistics: Free Word Order
« Reply #30 on: September 12, 2011, 09:56:20 am »
when saying something like 'oeyä sìltsana 'eylan', can the 'a' at the end of sìltsana be put in the beginning? if so, does it matter if it is asìltsan or sìltsana? ulte can I tuen 'oeyä sìltsana 'eylan' into 'oeyä 'eylan sìltsana'?

The a attached to attributive adjectives must be on the same side of the adjective as the noun is on — its job is to link those.  So:

  Oeyä sìltsana 'eylan
  Oeyä 'eylan asìltsan
'Awa lì'fya ke tam kawkrr.
A Na'vi Reference Grammar

Offline `Eylan Ayfalulukanä

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Re: Na'vi Linguistics: Free Word Order
« Reply #31 on: September 12, 2011, 02:57:03 pm »
Ma Neyn`ite, you need to start thinking like a blueskin! This takes some discipline to do, and generally doesn't happen overnight. This is because the way we use language is tied up with our culture, and it takes some getting used to a language that doesn't seem to line up with what our culture expects. The -a- on either end of an adjective is a good example. Its really hard to get used to the fact that an adjective can go on either end of a noun (with the -a- marker in the right place, of course), or that a noun can be flanked by two adjectives, such as in txura palulukan aohakx. You can also write this as ohakxa palulukan atxur depending on which characteristic of the thanator you want to most emphasize-- strong or hungry (the emphasized word goes on the end).

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Offline Neyn'ite Te Tsahìk Txeptsyìp'ite

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Re: Na'vi Linguistics: Free Word Order
« Reply #32 on: September 13, 2011, 12:48:56 pm »
spaw oe, ma 'Eylan, I think quite completely blueskin ;) I just need to practice the language, that is all.
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oel ayngati kameie, ma aysmukan sì aysmuke, Eywa ayngahu.
oeyä tsmukan, ma Nick, oeru ngaytxoa livu. nìmwey tsurokx. nga yawne lu oer.

Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: Na'vi Linguistics: Free Word Order
« Reply #33 on: September 13, 2011, 01:32:15 pm »
Yeah, I think there's a difference there between philosophically thinking like a blueskin, and thinking via the Na'vi language. Sure they might go hand in hand in some areas, but there's still a slight difference. I'd like to say that most people here would say that regardless of their level of Na'vi language proficiency, they share many if not all known Na'vi ideals.

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Offline `Eylan Ayfalulukanä

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Re: Na'vi Linguistics: Free Word Order
« Reply #34 on: September 13, 2011, 03:07:20 pm »
Yeah, I think there's a difference there between philosophically thinking like a blueskin, and thinking via the Na'vi language. Sure they might go hand in hand in some areas, but there's still a slight difference. I'd like to say that most people here would say that regardless of their level of Na'vi language proficiency, they share many if not all known Na'vi ideals.

Oel mllte fa tsa'u nang.

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Offline Ftiafpi

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Re: Na'vi Linguistics: Free Word Order
« Reply #35 on: September 15, 2011, 12:48:20 pm »
I'm going to split the "nang" stuff off into it's own thread: http://forum.learnnavi.org/syntax-grammar/%28ta-free-word-order%29/

 

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