Na'vi Linguistics: Free Word Order

Started by wm.annis, April 27, 2010, 04:42:54 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

wm.annis

I have taken the liberty of creating a Wiki page on these restrictions.  I included the topical rule, and added one for si verbs.

Quote from: Kemaweyan on September 08, 2011, 10:23:39 AM
But did anyone ask a confirmation? ???

When his practice is to do the same thing always (the only exception in one song), I'm not sure it's a high priority confirmation.  Putting the topical first is also consistent with the overwhelming majority of Human languages.

Neyn'ite Te Tsahìk Txeptsyìp'ite

Quote from: Blue Elf on September 08, 2011, 01:00:53 AM
Quote from: Neyn'ite Te Tsahìk Txeptsyìp'ite on September 07, 2011, 08:13:41 PM
basically what you're saying is that Na'vi sentences are free word order but to a certain point, that some things have rules to where they go. as in, tute kawng- evil person- person being first because the noun goes before the describing word, srane?
this is not good example, as you can use both kawnga tute and tute akawng (don't forget attributive -a-)

??? in Le'eylan's lessons it says that the describing word goes after the noun.
old gallery link?id=2025[/img]


oel ayngati kameie, ma aysmukan sì aysmuke, Eywa ayngahu.
oeyä tsmukan, ma Nick, oeru ngaytxoa livu. nìmwey tsurokx. nga yawne lu oer.

Tirea Aean

Quote from: Neyn'ite Te Tsahìk Txeptsyìp'ite on September 08, 2011, 03:59:14 PM
Quote from: Blue Elf on September 08, 2011, 01:00:53 AM
Quote from: Neyn'ite Te Tsahìk Txeptsyìp'ite on September 07, 2011, 08:13:41 PM
basically what you're saying is that Na'vi sentences are free word order but to a certain point, that some things have rules to where they go. as in, tute kawng- evil person- person being first because the noun goes before the describing word, srane?
this is not good example, as you can use both kawnga tute and tute akawng (don't forget attributive -a-)

??? in Le'eylan's lessons it says that the describing word goes after the noun.

Remind me to go in and fix that. (there are some other misinformations in them too. They're slightly out of date)

Neyn'ite Te Tsahìk Txeptsyìp'ite

is there anything that is required to be first when it comes to words/sentences?
old gallery link?id=2025[/img]


oel ayngati kameie, ma aysmukan sì aysmuke, Eywa ayngahu.
oeyä tsmukan, ma Nick, oeru ngaytxoa livu. nìmwey tsurokx. nga yawne lu oer.

Tirea Aean

#24
Quote from: Neyn'ite Te Tsahìk Txeptsyìp'ite on September 08, 2011, 05:40:13 PM
is there anything that is required to be first when it comes to words/sentences?

I outlined the word-order restrictions here:

Quote from: Tirea Aean on September 08, 2011, 08:11:57 AM
current restrictions against "FREE" word order:

1. ke must always go directly before the verb, kea must go before its noun.

2. Attributive/non-predicative adjectives must either go directly before or directly after the noun they describe:
Quote from: Blue Elf on September 08, 2011, 01:00:53 AM
you can use both kawnga tute and tute akawng (don't forget attributive -a-)

3. Possessives/genitives must either go before directly before or directly after their possessed noun, except that an adjective describing the noun may come in between if necessary:

oeyä 'eylan = 'eylan oeyä,
oeyä sìltsana 'eylan = 'eylan asìltsan oeyä

4. Ma must go directly before the name who is being addressed.

5. Srak(e) may (as far as I know) only go either at the very beginning or very end of a yes/no question.

6. The words ko and nang must only go at the end of the sentence.

7. Modal verbs can only come somewhere before the secondary verb; the secondary verb cannot happen somewhere before the modal:

nga yivom tsun = wrong
tsun nga yivom / nga tsun yivom / tsun yivom nga = correct forms.

As far as I can remember off the top of my head, these are the known word order restrictions.

EDIT: to more directly answer your question, As for things which MUST come first, I think there is just ke before verbs and kea before nouns. (Many of us suspect topical, but that has yet to be officially confirmed, as you see above in this discussion. ;) )

Kemaweyan

Quote from: Tirea Aean on September 08, 2011, 06:52:25 PM
Many of us suspect topical, but that has yet to be officially confirmed, as you see above in this discussion. ;)

Already confirmed :)
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Ftiafpi


'Oma Tirea

Quote from: Tirea Aean on September 08, 2011, 06:52:25 PM
EDIT: to more directly answer your question, As for things which MUST come first, I think there is just ke before verbs and kea before nouns. (Many of us suspect topical, but that has yet to be officially confirmed, as you see above in this discussion. ;) )

Rä'ä tswiva'...

Also, as noted on Na'viteri, when a noun with a genitive is on the end of two other nouns, regardless of clause, context may be required, as it isn't clear what is being posessed.

N.K.: Hì'ia fwampop oeyä 'eylan asìltsan lu.  Luckily fko can expect this to be rare.

[img]http://swokaikran.skxawng.lu/sigbar/nwotd.php?p=2b[/img]

ÌTXTSTXRR!!

Srake serar le'Ìnglìsìa lì'fyayä aylì'ut?  Nari si älofoniru rutxe!!

Blue Elf

Quote from: 'Oma Tirea on September 08, 2011, 11:09:53 PM
Also, as noted on Na'viteri, when a noun with a genitive is on the end of two other nouns, regardless of clause, context may be required, as it isn't clear what is being posessed.

N.K.: Hì'ia fwampop oeyä 'eylan asìltsan lu.  Luckily fko can expect this to be rare.
Exactly. That's why I've written my example in nonconfusing way. I think it's better to avoid such word order (if no context available).
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
"Oe tasyätxaw ulte koren za'u oehu" (Limonádový Joe)


Neyn'ite Te Tsahìk Txeptsyìp'ite

Quote from: Tirea Aean on September 08, 2011, 06:52:25 PM
Quote from: Neyn'ite Te Tsahìk Txeptsyìp'ite on September 08, 2011, 05:40:13 PM
is there anything that is required to be first when it comes to words/sentences?

I outlined the word-order restrictions here:

Quote from: Tirea Aean on September 08, 2011, 08:11:57 AM
current restrictions against "FREE" word order:

1. ke must always go directly before the verb, kea must go before its noun.

2. Attributive/non-predicative adjectives must either go directly before or directly after the noun they describe:
Quote from: Blue Elf on September 08, 2011, 01:00:53 AM
you can use both kawnga tute and tute akawng (don't forget attributive -a-)

3. Possessives/genitives must either go before directly before or directly after their possessed noun, except that an adjective describing the noun may come in between if necessary:

oeyä 'eylan = 'eylan oeyä,
oeyä sìltsana 'eylan = 'eylan asìltsan oeyä

4. Ma must go directly before the name who is being addressed.

5. Srak(e) may (as far as I know) only go either at the very beginning or very end of a yes/no question.

6. The words ko and nang must only go at the end of the sentence.

7. Modal verbs can only come somewhere before the secondary verb; the secondary verb cannot happen somewhere before the modal:

nga yivom tsun = wrong
tsun nga yivom / nga tsun yivom / tsun yivom nga = correct forms.

As far as I can remember off the top of my head, these are the known word order restrictions.

EDIT: to more directly answer your question, As for things which MUST come first, I think there is just ke before verbs and kea before nouns. (Many of us suspect topical, but that has yet to be officially confirmed, as you see above in this discussion. ;) )

when saying something like 'oeyä sìltsana 'eylan', can the 'a' at the end of sìltsana be put in the beginning? if so, does it matter if it is asìltsan or sìltsana? ulte can I tuen 'oeyä sìltsana 'eylan' into 'oeyä 'eylan sìltsana'?

ulte lì'upe 'modal'? lu oeyä Na'vi eyawr?
old gallery link?id=2025[/img]


oel ayngati kameie, ma aysmukan sì aysmuke, Eywa ayngahu.
oeyä tsmukan, ma Nick, oeru ngaytxoa livu. nìmwey tsurokx. nga yawne lu oer.

wm.annis

Quote from: Neyn'ite Te Tsahìk Txeptsyìp'ite on September 12, 2011, 09:18:55 AMwhen saying something like 'oeyä sìltsana 'eylan', can the 'a' at the end of sìltsana be put in the beginning? if so, does it matter if it is asìltsan or sìltsana? ulte can I tuen 'oeyä sìltsana 'eylan' into 'oeyä 'eylan sìltsana'?

The a attached to attributive adjectives must be on the same side of the adjective as the noun is on — its job is to link those.  So:

  Oeyä sìltsana 'eylan
  Oeyä 'eylan asìltsan

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

Ma Neyn`ite, you need to start thinking like a blueskin! This takes some discipline to do, and generally doesn't happen overnight. This is because the way we use language is tied up with our culture, and it takes some getting used to a language that doesn't seem to line up with what our culture expects. The -a- on either end of an adjective is a good example. Its really hard to get used to the fact that an adjective can go on either end of a noun (with the -a- marker in the right place, of course), or that a noun can be flanked by two adjectives, such as in txura palulukan aohakx. You can also write this as ohakxa palulukan atxur depending on which characteristic of the thanator you want to most emphasize-- strong or hungry (the emphasized word goes on the end).

Yawey ngahu!
pamrel si ro [email protected]

Neyn'ite Te Tsahìk Txeptsyìp'ite

spaw oe, ma 'Eylan, I think quite completely blueskin ;) I just need to practice the language, that is all.
old gallery link?id=2025[/img]


oel ayngati kameie, ma aysmukan sì aysmuke, Eywa ayngahu.
oeyä tsmukan, ma Nick, oeru ngaytxoa livu. nìmwey tsurokx. nga yawne lu oer.

Tirea Aean

Yeah, I think there's a difference there between philosophically thinking like a blueskin, and thinking via the Na'vi language. Sure they might go hand in hand in some areas, but there's still a slight difference. I'd like to say that most people here would say that regardless of their level of Na'vi language proficiency, they share many if not all known Na'vi ideals.

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

Quote from: Tirea Aean on September 13, 2011, 01:32:15 PM
Yeah, I think there's a difference there between philosophically thinking like a blueskin, and thinking via the Na'vi language. Sure they might go hand in hand in some areas, but there's still a slight difference. I'd like to say that most people here would say that regardless of their level of Na'vi language proficiency, they share many if not all known Na'vi ideals.

Oel mllte fa tsa'u nang.

Yawey ngahu!
pamrel si ro [email protected]

Ftiafpi


Kyttin13

#36
Given free word order/syntax(?) sentence structure...does that mean you can use near-english sentence structure??? :-\

Mech

Quote from: Kyttin13 on September 18, 2019, 01:00:25 PM
Given free word order/syntax(?) sentence structure...does that mean you can use near-english sentence structure??? :-\
Yes, I think most of the times that english sentence structure would work fine

Kyttin13

Quote from: Mech on September 18, 2019, 03:09:33 PM
Quote from: Kyttin13 on September 18, 2019, 01:00:25 PM
Given free word order/syntax(?) sentence structure...does that mean you can use near-english sentence structure??? :-\
Yes, I think most of the times that english sentence structure would work fine
Irayo, Mech! (Irayo, ma Mech?)

Tirea Aean

Quote from: Mech on September 18, 2019, 03:09:33 PM
Quote from: Kyttin13 on September 18, 2019, 01:00:25 PM
Given free word order/syntax(?) sentence structure...does that mean you can use near-english sentence structure??? :-\
Yes, I think most of the times that english sentence structure would work fine

In my experience, this depends highly on the complexity of the sentence in question. There are plenty of structures in English that can't make their way to Na'vi 1:1 without some kind of necessary adjustment. This is because the two grammars are not the same. I would estimate that all in all, English word order / structures (1:1) will work about 40% of the time, tops. I am glad that this percentage is not near 100% because if it were, then Na'vi would just be a relex of English where all you do is swap out the words one by one, from left to right. (yuck o.o)