Author Topic: Noun with 3 or more adjectives  (Read 1291 times)

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Offline Blue Elf

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Noun with 3 or more adjectives
« on: June 12, 2014, 02:20:55 pm »
Quote
Txantslusam sì nitram sì hona a 'eylan uvan si
This looks somehow strange, do we have official example of such usage?
I'd expect a lu with more adjectives:

'eylan a lu txantslusam sì nitram sì hona uvan si
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
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Offline Tìtstewan

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Noun with 3 or more adjectives
« Reply #1 on: June 12, 2014, 02:57:32 pm »
As far as I remember me, lu can be omitted.

Quote
Txantslusam sì nitram sì hona a 'eylan uvan si
This looks somehow strange, do we have official example of such usage?
I'd expect a lu with more adjectives:

'eylan a lu txantslusam sì nitram sì hona uvan si
I think, this is one way, one could write it. I see nothing wrong.
To be honest, expect that stuff mentioned in this post, I didn't saw one, but it is derived by
  Ke zasyup lì'Ona ne kxutu a mìfa fu a wrrpa.
  The l'Ona will not perish to the enemy within or the enemy without.

Wiki Intentional Future Details

So far, we have only seen from Frommer the Adj - N - Adj ordering.  However, due to this canon example:

  Ke zasyup lì'Ona ne kxutu a mìfa fu a wrrpa.
  The l'Ona will not perish to the enemy within or the enemy without.

and that fact that Frommer has said that the adjective attributive -a- is a development of the clausal a, I suspect ADJ-a ADJ-a N and the like might turn out to be acceptable.

And here was something:
Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #7: multiple attributive adjectives; gerunds; nations

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Offline Blue Elf

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Noun with 3 or more adjectives
« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2014, 02:59:03 pm »
As far as I remember me, lu can be omitted.

Quote
Txantslusam sì nitram sì hona a 'eylan uvan si
This looks somehow strange, do we have official example of such usage?
I'd expect a lu with more adjectives:

'eylan a lu txantslusam sì nitram sì hona uvan si
I think, this is one way, one could write it. I see nothing wrong.
To be honest, expect that stuff mentioned in this post, I didn't saw one, but it is derived by
  Ke zasyup lì'Ona ne kxutu a mìfa fu a wrrpa.
  The l'Ona will not perish to the enemy within or the enemy without.

Wiki Intentional Future Details

So far, we have only seen from Frommer the Adj - N - Adj ordering.  However, due to this canon example:

  Ke zasyup lì'Ona ne kxutu a mìfa fu a wrrpa.
  The l'Ona will not perish to the enemy within or the enemy without.

and that fact that Frommer has said that the adjective attributive -a- is a development of the clausal a, I suspect ADJ-a ADJ-a N and the like might turn out to be acceptable.

And here was something:
Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #7: multiple attributive adjectives; gerunds; nations
According last link my version is correct, but there's nothing about omitting lu. I don't remember any rule which allows this dropping. Trying to search...
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
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Offline Tirea Aean

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Noun with 3 or more adjectives
« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2014, 03:04:12 pm »
According last link my version is correct, but there's nothing about omitting lu. I don't remember any rule which allows this dropping. Trying to search...

Yeah, for this reason, I too felt really weird seeing that the way it was. I think it makes some kind of sense if you imply an invisible lu there. I don't think this is the only case of invisible implied lu (or other words) I have seen.

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Offline Kame Ayyo’koti

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Noun with 3 or more adjectives
« Reply #4 on: June 13, 2014, 08:37:55 pm »
According last link my version is correct, but there's nothing about omitting lu. I don't remember any rule which allows this dropping. Trying to search...

Yeah, for this reason, I too felt really weird seeing that the way it was. I think it makes some kind of sense if you imply an invisible lu there. I don't think this is the only case of invisible implied lu (or other words) I have seen.

From the grammar book:
Quote from: Horen §6.18.3
Though English can modify nouns directly with prepositional phrases (“the man on the moon”), Na’vi attaches such phrases to nouns with a, as in
fìpo lu vrrtep a mì sokx atsleng
this is a demon in a false body,
ngeyä teri faytele a aysänumeri
your instructions about these matters.

I think these sentences imply a hidden lu in their attributive phrases:
fìpo lu vrrtep a (lu) mì sokx atsleng
This-person is demon who (is) in body false.
(I feel like tok should be used there (a tok tokxit atsleng?), but let's not get off-topic...)

(rearranged for clarity:)
ngeyä aysänumeri a (lu) teri faytele
your instructions which (are) about these-matters.

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Offline Tìtstewan

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Noun with 3 or more adjectives
« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2014, 08:50:20 pm »
Exactly this was my thought about lu. In some situations, lu becomes hidden especially after a.

/off-topic
(I feel like tok should be used there (a tok tokxit atsleng?), but let's not get off-topic...)
As for the question if there should be tok or lu, there are some things which currently will be added (or it's already written) in the next LEP submission file for P. Frommer.

PS. I think, I'm going to write a PM to a mod to split that topic, because we are on the way of prefessional discussion. :P
Edit: Message sent.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2014, 08:59:44 pm by Tìtstewan »

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Offline `Eylan Ayfalulukanä

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Re: Noun with 3 or more adjectives
« Reply #6 on: June 14, 2014, 02:43:21 am »
Blue Elf's attempt at correcting the original sentence, namely 'eylan a lu txantslusam sì nitram sì hona uvan si makes a lot of sense with the lu present, altyhough it also works without it. I am not 100% certain I understand what the lu does in that sentence. It certainly makes the relative clause with the multiple adjectives more complete as a sentence.

In the Horen example: fìpo lu vrrtep a (lu) mì sokx atsleng, the lu is wisely left out. Here, it does not help the meaning, even if implied.

I don't find tok as mysterious as some people. fìpo lu vrrtep a tok tokxit atsleng does not really work (to my English mind), wheres the previous example makes perfect sense. All tok is, is a locative version of lu. In this particular example, the place where the demon is, is inside a body. So a simple mì+ describes things with little fuss or muss. Nevertheless, it will be interesting to have K. Pawl expound upon this rather interesting word.

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Re: Noun with 3 or more adjectives
« Reply #7 on: June 14, 2014, 04:09:11 am »
Blue Elf's attempt at correcting the original sentence, namely 'eylan a lu txantslusam sì nitram sì hona uvan si makes a lot of sense with the lu present, altyhough it also works without it. I am not 100% certain I understand what the lu does in that sentence. It certainly makes the relative clause with the multiple adjectives more complete as a sentence.

In the Horen example: fìpo lu vrrtep a (lu) mì sokx atsleng, the lu is wisely left out. Here, it does not help the meaning, even if implied.
There are many examples where one can see, that a hidden lu does not work.
Random example from Na'viteri:

Nìfrakrr fol ’olem a wutso ftxìvä’ lu nìngay.
‘As always, the dinner they cooked tasted really terrible.’
Always they cooked that the dinner tasted really terrible.
The dinner tasted really terrible which they alwasy cooked.


I see no way how lu would fit here.



/off topic
I don't find tok as mysterious as some people. fìpo lu vrrtep a tok tokxit atsleng does not really work (to my English mind), wheres the previous example makes perfect sense. All tok is, is a locative version of lu. In this particular example, the place where the demon is, is inside a body. So a simple mì+ describes things with little fuss or muss. Nevertheless, it will be interesting to have K. Pawl expound upon this rather interesting word.
Just to show a possibility which makes sense in English too:

Fìpo lu vrrtep a tok tokxit atsleng.
This is a demon which occupy a false body.

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Re: Noun with 3 or more adjectives
« Reply #8 on: June 14, 2014, 04:45:16 am »

Random example from Na'viteri:

Nìfrakrr fol ’olem a wutso ftxìvä’ lu nìngay.
‘As always, the dinner they cooked tasted really terrible.’

Now, that's a truly interesting sentence! It is a very good example of left-branching attribution. Most of the time, a standalone a usually tells you the material to the right is the 'adjective' or 'adverb'. In this case, it is the material to the left. There also seems to be an additional a missing, but because it is Frommerian, it has to be correct. The phrase ftxìvä’ lu nìngay is an 'adjective' describing wutso on the right side of the word, and should be set off with another a, but it isn't. Why?

Quote from: Tìtstewan


/off topic
I don't find tok as mysterious as some people. fìpo lu vrrtep a tok tokxit atsleng does not really work (to my English mind), wheres the previous example makes perfect sense. All tok is, is a locative version of lu. In this particular example, the place where the demon is, is inside a body. So a simple mì+ describes things with little fuss or muss. Nevertheless, it will be interesting to have K. Pawl expound upon this rather interesting word.
Just to show a possibility which makes sense in English too:

Fìpo lu vrrtep a tok tokxit atsleng.
This is a demon which occupy a false body.

'Occupy' works perfectly there. I did not realize 'occupy' was a possible definition for tok. Thanks for enlightening me, ma Tìtstewan!

Yawey ngahu!
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Offline Tìtstewan

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Re: Noun with 3 or more adjectives
« Reply #9 on: June 14, 2014, 05:10:33 am »

Random example from Na'viteri:

Nìfrakrr fol ’olem a wutso ftxìvä’ lu nìngay.
‘As always, the dinner they cooked tasted really terrible.’

Now, that's a truly interesting sentence! It is a very good example of left-branching attribution. Most of the time, a standalone a usually tells you the material to the right is the 'adjective' or 'adverb'. In this case, it is the material to the left. There also seems to be an additional a missing, but because it is Frommerian, it has to be correct. The phrase ftxìvä’ lu nìngay is an 'adjective' describing wutso on the right side of the word, and should be set off with another a, but it isn't. Why?
Because,

Nìfrakrr [fol ’olem] a [wutso] ftxìvä’ lu nìngay.
As-always the-[they cooked it]-meal disgusting is really.

wutso lu ftxìvä’ = wutso aftxìvä’ = wutso ftxìvä’ lu
the dinner is disgusting = the disgusting dinner = the dinner disgusting is

Other simple example:

palulukan lu txantsan = palulukan atxantsan = palulukan txantsan lu
the thanator is great = the great thanator = the thanator great is

Word order and so. :P

Quote from: Tìtstewan


/off topic
I don't find tok as mysterious as some people. fìpo lu vrrtep a tok tokxit atsleng does not really work (to my English mind), wheres the previous example makes perfect sense. All tok is, is a locative version of lu. In this particular example, the place where the demon is, is inside a body. So a simple mì+ describes things with little fuss or muss. Nevertheless, it will be interesting to have K. Pawl expound upon this rather interesting word.
Just to show a possibility which makes sense in English too:

Fìpo lu vrrtep a tok tokxit atsleng.
This is a demon which occupy a false body.

'Occupy' works perfectly there. I did not realize 'occupy' was a possible definition for tok. Thanks for enlightening me, ma Tìtstewan!
Nìprrte'! :)
It's also one of the definition of tok: occupy a space, be at
« Last Edit: June 14, 2014, 07:48:21 am by Tìtstewan »

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Offline Wllìm

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Re: Noun with 3 or more adjectives
« Reply #10 on: June 14, 2014, 06:44:33 am »
[Nìfrakrr fol ’olem] a [wutso ftxìvä’ lu nìngay].
[Always they cooked] that [the dinner is truly disgusting]

I read the sentence differently, namely that fol 'olem a only attaches to wutso:  ???

Nìfrakrr fol 'olem a wutso ftxìvä' lu nìngay.
As-always the-[they cooked it]-meal disgusting is really.
As always, the meal they cooked was really disgusting.

(Nice sentence, by the way ;) )
« Last Edit: June 14, 2014, 07:07:04 am by Wllìm »
Reykunyu (dictionary website)Noun declensionsVerb infixes •  Weather forecasts in Na'viKDE nìNa'viMy Na'vi blog
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Re: Noun with 3 or more adjectives
« Reply #11 on: June 14, 2014, 07:02:21 am »
That’s how I understood it as well. ;)



But let’s not digress. The thread was about more than three adjectives attached to a noun, and I think that question has been answered.

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Re: Noun with 3 or more adjectives
« Reply #12 on: June 14, 2014, 07:50:38 am »
[Nìfrakrr fol ’olem] a [wutso ftxìvä’ lu nìngay].
[Always they cooked] that [the dinner is truly disgusting]

I read the sentence differently, namely that fol 'olem a only attaches to wutso???

Nìfrakrr fol 'olem a wutso ftxìvä' lu nìngay.
As-always the-[they cooked it]-meal disgusting is really.
As always, the meal they cooked was really disgusting.

(Nice sentence, by the way ;) )
O! Ngaru tìyawr! +1

But let’s not digress. The thread was about more than three adjectives attached to a noun, and I think that question has been answered.
Fì'u! :) :)

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