Author Topic: Pronouns (and Topic Markers) for Beginners  (Read 2890 times)

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Offline kewnya txamew'itan

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Re: Pronouns (and Topic Markers) for Beginners
« Reply #20 on: January 13, 2010, 01:58:01 pm »
Yeah I know. I'm sorry, I'm not annoyed with the use of aynga and Na'vi plurals, just the translation of them, anyway, as I've said, this probably won't get anyone anywhere because this is one of my pet hates. The only outcome I can see is me coming out looking like a whining little pedant so I'll shut up.  ::)
Internet Acronyms Nìna'vi

hamletä tìralpuseng lena'vi sngolä'eiyi. tìkangkem si awngahu ro
http://bit.ly/53GnAB
The translation of Hamlet into Na'vi has started! Join with us at http://bit.ly/53GnAB

txo nga new oehu pivlltxe nìna'vi, nga oer 'eylan si mì fayspuk (http://bit.ly/bp9fwf)
If you want to speak na'vi to me, friend me on facebook (http://bit.ly/bp9fwf)

numena'viyä hapxì amezamkivohinve
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Offline Erimeyz

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Re: Pronouns (and Topic Markers) for Beginners
« Reply #21 on: January 15, 2010, 11:57:35 am »
What I meant is that if you're talking to a group of four or more and say you all (or y'all) then you should be referring to every person in that group whilst a Na'vi plural you could be referring to any number of them that is four or more.

This distinction makes no sense to me.

As a native speaker of a "y'all" dialect, I claim "y'all" is synonymous with "you (plural)".  When you say "y'all" you are referring to "all" of whomever you are addressing, just as you would be with "you (plural)".  The number of people in a group versus the number of people you are addressing versus the number of people you are referring to is irrelevant.  If you're talking to a dozen people, and then want to tell four of them that they are stupid, either "You are stupid" or "Y'all are stupid" would be perfectly acceptable usage - as long as you have some other method by which to delineate that you are referring to a particular subset of the entire group.  Linguistically, neither you (pl) nor y'all can do that.  If you don't want your ass beat black and blue you better have turned to face the subgroup and used gestures to make it clear that you're only talking about the four guys on this side of you and not everyone else.

As another example - you can use "y'all" when in the presence of, and addressing, a single person.  The implication is that you are referring to that person and some unspecified but contextually-understood group that they belong to, commonly (in social settings) their family, but also perhaps the company they work for, the city/state/country they live in, or the sports team they root for (note that in the case of a sports team the person being addressed isn't literally included in the group being referred to, but there is an implication that the team and its fans can be thought of as a whole).  All of these cases show that the referent of "y'all" is not directly related to the number of people you happen to be in the presence of when speaking.

I hope y'all got it straight now.

  - Eri

Offline Erimeyz

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Re: Pronouns (and Topic Markers) for Beginners
« Reply #22 on: January 15, 2010, 12:02:29 pm »
The thing is, in English there is a way to differentiate between part of a group and all of the group, either with numbering or using you all only refer to the whole group.

And on that note: "y'all four" is perfectly acceptable usage, just as "you four" would be.

Y'all is a synonym for you (pl).

Offline Erimeyz

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Re: Pronouns (and Topic Markers) for Beginners
« Reply #23 on: January 19, 2010, 05:34:41 pm »
Added to the Resources page of the LN wiki.

  - Eri

Offline suomichris

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Re: Pronouns (and Topic Markers) for Beginners
« Reply #24 on: January 19, 2010, 05:49:51 pm »
Y'all is a synonym for you (pl).
Except in Texas, where "y'all" has been reanalyzed as singular, and "all y'all" is now the plural! :)

Having said that, I wonder about "the two of you/you two" type constructions in Na'vi.  Obviously we'll have to wait until we see more, but I wouldn't be surprised if we saw things similar to:

Na’viyä hapxì
"one of the people"

So you might have:

ayngeyä mune
"two of you"

Hard to say about the difference between "the two of you" and "two of you," though...  Again, speculative. Only time will tell :)

Offline wm.annis

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Re: Pronouns (and Topic Markers) for Beginners
« Reply #25 on: January 19, 2010, 05:54:55 pm »
So you might have:

ayngeyä mune
"two of you"

I'm not so sure.  The dual seems productive.  When Eytukan orders Jake and Grace to be tied up, he says "mefot(i) yìm."  You can see it in the ABC language spot at one point (1:58).
« Last Edit: January 19, 2010, 09:37:56 pm by Ftiafpi »
'Awa lì'fya ke tam kawkrr.
A Na'vi Reference Grammar

Offline suomichris

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Re: Pronouns (and Topic Markers) for Beginners
« Reply #26 on: January 19, 2010, 06:21:14 pm »
So you might have:

ayngeyä mune
"two of you"

I'm not so sure.  The dual seems productive.  When Eytukan orders Jake and Grace to be tied up, he says "mefot(i) yìm."  You can see it in the ABC language spot at one point.
Oh, yeah, my stupid for not thinking about the dual.  Let's rethink that example as:

ayngeyä tsìng
"(the?) four of you"

Offline Ftiafpi

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Re: Pronouns (and Topic Markers) for Beginners
« Reply #27 on: January 19, 2010, 09:39:40 pm »
Added to the Resources page of the LN wiki.

  - Eri


Irayo!

Offline justNaviBrother

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Re: Pronouns (and Topic Markers) for Beginners
« Reply #28 on: January 21, 2010, 12:29:02 pm »
Kaltxi, my dear friends. Sorry for my english if something incorrect. I want to ask about -ri (or -iri). So I have put this topic marker in sentence when i'll get a dialog about this object??? ??? or it's probably takes in another cases??? please? explain....
Pefya oel tsun tivìng atanit, txo ayfeyä aynari tsere'a mì txon???
Ma aysmukan si aysmuke, ayoeng zene 'awsiteng livu, talun kawnga krr set.
Ye'rìn oe spaw atan zilva'u ulte frapol Eywati kilvameie

Offline suomichris

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Offline Ftiafpi

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Offline suomichris

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Re: Pronouns (and Topic Markers) for Beginners
« Reply #31 on: January 21, 2010, 01:01:26 pm »
We could always just edit our first posts... "For more on pronouns/topic markers, see: "

??

Offline Ftiafpi

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Re: Pronouns (and Topic Markers) for Beginners
« Reply #32 on: January 21, 2010, 01:04:10 pm »
We could always just edit our first posts... "For more on pronouns/topic markers, see: "

??

That would work though I suppose it wouldn't really make sense for you to link to mine since mine indirectly mentions topic markers but yours has nothing that I can see about pronouns (unless I missed it).

I linked your post in my OP.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2010, 01:06:14 pm by Ftiafpi »

Offline suomichris

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Re: Pronouns (and Topic Markers) for Beginners
« Reply #33 on: January 21, 2010, 01:33:42 pm »
Ah, yeah, that's true, I suppose... And if people read the topic thing first, they probably won't be confused about pronouns...

Offline justNaviBrother

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Re: Pronouns (and Topic Markers) for Beginners
« Reply #34 on: January 21, 2010, 03:58:01 pm »
Can you tell me more about topic marker... please. I understand that i have to use it when im going to another topic but on the forum i see another sentences so im confused now.....help me please. Irayo
Pefya oel tsun tivìng atanit, txo ayfeyä aynari tsere'a mì txon???
Ma aysmukan si aysmuke, ayoeng zene 'awsiteng livu, talun kawnga krr set.
Ye'rìn oe spaw atan zilva'u ulte frapol Eywati kilvameie

Offline Ftiafpi

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Re: Pronouns (and Topic Markers) for Beginners
« Reply #35 on: January 21, 2010, 04:15:36 pm »
Can you tell me more about topic marker... please. I understand that i have to use it when im going to another topic but on the forum i see another sentences so im confused now.....help me please. Irayo

Have you read this post: http://forum.learnnavi.org/prefixes-infixes-and-suffixes/the-complete-beginners-guide-to-the-topic-marker-ri/

If you have and would like more help you could try Skxawng's worksheet on topic markers.

Offline suomichris

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Re: Pronouns (and Topic Markers) for Beginners
« Reply #36 on: January 21, 2010, 04:34:23 pm »
Can you tell me more about topic marker... please. I understand that i have to use it when im going to another topic but on the forum i see another sentences so im confused now.....help me please. Irayo
Also keep in mind that lots (most?) of the sentences that people produce on here are not necessarily correct, so even if you see other uses of the topic marker, it doesn't mean those are correct...

Offline kewnya txamew'itan

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Re: Pronouns (and Topic Markers) for Beginners
« Reply #37 on: January 21, 2010, 04:45:20 pm »
Can you tell me more about topic marker... please. I understand that i have to use it when im going to another topic but on the forum i see another sentences so im confused now.....help me please. Irayo

A lot of people are using topic markers where they shouldn't. Don't trust everything that you read.
Internet Acronyms Nìna'vi

hamletä tìralpuseng lena'vi sngolä'eiyi. tìkangkem si awngahu ro
http://bit.ly/53GnAB
The translation of Hamlet into Na'vi has started! Join with us at http://bit.ly/53GnAB

txo nga new oehu pivlltxe nìna'vi, nga oer 'eylan si mì fayspuk (http://bit.ly/bp9fwf)
If you want to speak na'vi to me, friend me on facebook (http://bit.ly/bp9fwf)

numena'viyä hapxì amezamkivohinve
learnnavi's

Offline justNaviBrother

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Re: Pronouns (and Topic Markers) for Beginners
« Reply #38 on: January 22, 2010, 10:57:57 am »
ohh))) thank you)) so mostly I've to use ergative because Navi has ergative construction of sentences, yes?
Pefya oel tsun tivìng atanit, txo ayfeyä aynari tsere'a mì txon???
Ma aysmukan si aysmuke, ayoeng zene 'awsiteng livu, talun kawnga krr set.
Ye'rìn oe spaw atan zilva'u ulte frapol Eywati kilvameie

Offline Ftiafpi

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Re: Pronouns (and Topic Markers) for Beginners
« Reply #39 on: January 22, 2010, 11:00:39 am »
ohh))) thank you)) so mostly I've to use ergative because Navi has ergative construction of sentences, yes?

What? I'm not sure what you're talking about here.

 

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