Author Topic: Pxe- and trial forms  (Read 1015 times)

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Offline Eight

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Pxe- and trial forms
« on: January 20, 2010, 04:12:42 pm »
Following on from the thread in the Intermediate section about the new information, if the trial prefix for nouns is now attested to be pxe- does that make something like this valid

pxoe-ri ay-eyktan ta lefaketuana ayatxkxe <verb>
we (three) leaders from alien lands..

a la, we three kings of orient...

For someone who isn't religious, it's weird the things your brain throws out when you're trying to find a use for we3. :D


Offline omängum fra'uti

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Re: Pxe- and trial forms
« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2010, 04:49:53 pm »
I'd trialize leaders as well, land could go either way.
Ftxey lu nga tokx ftxey lu nga tirea? Lu oe tìkeftxo.
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Offline Eight

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Re: Pxe- and trial forms
« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2010, 04:52:38 pm »
I'd trialize leaders as well, land could go either way.
I did wonder about putting the pxe- on leaders, but I think I read something recently which was the equivalent in dual and had moe + ay<noun> + lu.

Wish I could remember where...

Offline ~Ayngahu

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Re: Pxe- and trial forms
« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2010, 08:50:21 pm »
I'd trialize leaders as well, land could go either way.

Is it because of context you'd like to see the noun trialized while pronoun has allready been?

I'm not too sure on the subject, but I read that once pronoun was bent for more than one, the following context would be simply plural. For example:
Me-fo ay-saronyu lu
DUAL+he PLU+hunter be
Those two are hunters.
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Offline suomichris

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Re: Pxe- and trial forms
« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2010, 12:31:38 am »
I'd trialize leaders as well, land could go either way.

Is it because of context you'd like to see the noun trialized while pronoun has allready been?

I'm not too sure on the subject, but I read that once pronoun was bent for more than one, the following context would be simply plural. For example:
Me-fo ay-saronyu lu
DUAL+he PLU+hunter be
Those two are hunters.
I don't know that we know for sure how Na'vi works in this regard, but if we need number agreement, then duals go with duals, plurals with plurals, etc.  Having a dual pronoun and plural noun would be the same as saying in English "He is a hunters" or "They are a hunter."  Just as singular doesn't go with plural, so too does dual (=2) not go with plural (>=4).

Offline kewnya txamew'itan

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Re: Pxe- and trial forms
« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2010, 04:41:47 pm »
pxoe-ri ay-eyktan ta lefaketuana ayatxkxe <verb>
we (three) leaders from alien lands..

I'm not sure how to do we ___ constructions.

I'd probably do it pxoe a eyk (we that lead).

Also, kewong would be better than lefaketuan.

Lastly, lands like that is a bit of an odd construction that I'm not sure would translate, I'd leave it singular. Also, as Omängum says below, atxkxe would probably sound odd culturally. Kllpxìltu is probably better.

I'd say:

pxoe a eyk ta kewonga atxkxe kllpxìltu.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2010, 12:54:48 pm by kawngä mungeyu »
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Offline omängum fra'uti

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Re: Pxe- and trial forms
« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2010, 04:57:22 pm »
Atxkxe would probably confuse the Na'vi, because they don't see the land as theirs, they see themselves as part of the land.  (Hence the word Frommer used as their word for Pandora is, as I'd predicted it would be, something which does not put the concept of it being theirs in it.)

More likely, kllpxìltu (Territory) would be the word they would use/understand.
Ftxey lu nga tokx ftxey lu nga tirea? Lu oe tìkeftxo.
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Offline SanguineEpitaph

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Re: Pxe- and trial forms
« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2010, 06:20:29 pm »
I was reading through those examples and pxe- was added to "oe" and then it became pxoe, how come it isn't pxeoe?

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Kuarŏ na nama tanayi cawŏŏt, kuo nim zaosmaŏt.
"Out of what crypt they crawl, I cannot tell."

Offline omängum fra'uti

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Re: Pxe- and trial forms
« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2010, 06:34:44 pm »
Same reason it is moe instead of meoe.

Oe/ohe seems to be an irregular pronoun for dual and trial.
Ftxey lu nga tokx ftxey lu nga tirea? Lu oe tìkeftxo.
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Offline suomichris

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Re: Pxe- and trial forms
« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2010, 06:44:37 pm »
Same reason it is moe instead of meoe.

Oe/ohe seems to be an irregular pronoun for dual and trial.
I bet that it is the dual/trial morpheme that is irregular here...  I wonder what happens with vowel-initial roots that aren't pronouns?

Offline SanguineEpitaph

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Re: Pxe- and trial forms
« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2010, 06:50:41 pm »
Okay, I'll just accept it. xD
Irayo!
Kuarŏ na nama tanayi cawŏŏt, kuo nim zaosmaŏt.
"Out of what crypt they crawl, I cannot tell."

Offline omängum fra'uti

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Re: Pxe- and trial forms
« Reply #11 on: January 21, 2010, 08:03:24 pm »
Same reason it is moe instead of meoe.

Oe/ohe seems to be an irregular pronoun for dual and trial.
I bet that it is the dual/trial morpheme that is irregular here...  I wonder what happens with vowel-initial roots that aren't pronouns?
It's attested the answer is nothing for at least "u" words.

Apparently one of the trial examples from Frommer was "pxeunil" - 3 dreams.
Ftxey lu nga tokx ftxey lu nga tirea? Lu oe tìkeftxo.
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Offline Eight

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Re: Pxe- and trial forms
« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2010, 12:28:00 pm »
I'm not sure how to do we ___ constructions.
I'd probably do it pxoe a eyk (we that lead).
Yeah it did come out weird, and your relative clause certainly works better - will have to remember that one.

Originally I'd been thinking that if you said...
pxoe ayeyktan lu ta
we(3) are leaders from...
... but are able to drop the lu in copula clauses (as I think is attested elsewhere) then it might work. However, you'd still need an "a"  when it came to the next <verb> part I guess.

Quote
Also, kewong would be better than lefaketuan.
Ah, ok. Cheers mate. Need to get back into those flash cards. Lol.

Atxkxe would probably confuse the Na'vi, because they don't see the land as theirs, they see themselves as part of the land.
I passed some language data from the Wii game on to Taronyu, one of the sentences sounded to me like that they use atxkxe to refer to a land/territory that has been destroyed by humans. However, I'm not sure I heard right but that was my thinking in using it here.

Offline kewnya txamew'itan

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Re: Pxe- and trial forms
« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2010, 12:53:37 pm »
Ma eight, I don't know about the wii game, but if it's anything like the other game I wouldn't give it much credance when it comes to grammar, culture or pronounciation. For individual words it is probably ok but for anything else, I'd want at least one other source backing it up.

Atxkxe would probably confuse the Na'vi, because they don't see the land as theirs, they see themselves as part of the land.  (Hence the word Frommer used as their word for Pandora is, as I'd predicted it would be, something which does not put the concept of it being theirs in it.)

More likely, kllpxìltu (Territory) would be the word they would use/understand.

That's a good point, kllpxìltu would make more sense culturally. Editing.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2010, 12:56:03 pm by kawngä mungeyu »
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Offline Eight

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Re: Pxe- and trial forms
« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2010, 01:15:47 pm »
Ma eight, I don't know about the wii game, but if it's anything like the other game I wouldn't give it much credance when it comes to grammar, culture or pronounciation. For individual words it is probably ok but for anything else, I'd want at least one other source backing it up.
Oh I totally agree. But, for instance, I don't have access to a transcription of the movie and the other sources so I'm kinda stuck when it comes to researching the usages of individual words a lot of the time. Just wish I had a corpus of all known attested Na'vi...

But I'm more than happy to try a word that I think is ok and be told otherwise. I mentioned the game just to say where I got the idea from, certainly not to claim that I'm right or anything. :)

 

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