Syntax Order

[markus031098]

At the bottom of the , it says at the Syntax section that "The most notable aspect of Na'vi syntax is the freedom of word order." So does that mean that everything can go wherever it wants and that only nouns and adjectives have to go together or is there a certain order for everything?  

[Lurk]

The word order isn't completely free, but the majority of it is. To handle for this free word order, certain elements (such as the object and subject of a sentence) are identified through prefixes and suffixes.

[Nessimon]

To answer, perhaps a little more thorough I'll just quote the Language Log article:

@Wm Annis: Your point about free word order is very well taken. You're absolutely right: by "free" I meant, as you said, "not syntactic"; discourse issues will affect the choice of word order. Na'vi is still a work in progress, and up to now I've been making some word order decisions on the basis of "feel"—no doubt influenced by the languages I know, given that I don't have native speaker intuition. (Wish I could find someone who does.) Codifying the rules of discourse is something I'm working on.

Hope that clarifies!

[Is.]

Some things must either precede or follow other words. Three things off the top of my head is when you use the adjective marker -a or a- to modify a noun. Or when you use the genitive -yä the thing being possessed must be either directly following or preceeding the possessor. And when you use the verb "si" or "tìng" together with another word to form a new verb, they must be next to eachother. I'm sure the are many other cases like this.

'Ivong Na'vi! Kä, Markus!

[kewnya txamew'itan]

Also, depending on the sentence as a whole the genitive (and the word it describes) may be forced into a certain position.

My father hunted Yerik

sempul-ìl oe-yä yerik-it t<am>aron

is ambiguous

so you should write/say:

oe-yä sempul-ìl yeriki-it t<am>aron

[Is.]

Also, depending on the sentence as a whole the genitive (and the word it describes) may be forced into a certain position.

My father hunted Yerik

sempul-ìl oe-yä yerik-it t<am>aron

is ambiguous

so you should write/say:

oe-yä sempul-ìl yeriki-it t<am>aron

I tend to use the genetive preceding the phenomena possessed if I'm trying to convey the meaning of "'s": "Oeyä sempu" "My dad." Then I use the genetive following the phenomena possessed to convey the meaning of "of": "Utral aymokriyä" "The tree of voices."

How about you, Kawngä?

[kewnya txamew'itan]

I tend to do this, as do most people here but I think that is primarily as a result of being a native English speaker.

In Na'vi, who knows how it should be done, but I'm willing to bet it isn't the way we're doing it (or at least, not as consistently).

[omängum fra'uti]

I'm pretty sure order makes no difference to the actual meaning of the genitives.  In fact, "father of mine" and "my father" are semantically identical, so I don't even think the Na'vi would see a difference between the genitive use of either.  It's us English speakers trying to apply some significance to how this is ordered.  However it is worth noting that to be unambiguous, when you use multiple genitives modifying each other, you need to have a pronoun on one side or the other, and modifying genitives in one direction from there.  IE my brother's ikran's father's rider would be "Maktoyu oeyä tsmukanä ikranä sempulä" or "Maktoyu sempulä ikranä tsmukanä oeyä".  (The location of Maktoyu in all that doesn't make a difference, save that it must be on one end or the other.)  Anything else with more than 2 genitives in a group becomes unclear who is possessing what, plus becomes difficult to mentally untangle.

[Kätsyín te Zotxekay Tsyal’itan]

So order isn't as important as in, say the French language, where almost everything is the reverse of what we English speakers are used to?

[Lurk]

No, it is not.

[markus031098]

French isn't that different. A French girl in my class said that the French syntax was almost the same as English.

[jparachoniak]

I'm pretty sure order makes no difference to the actual meaning of the genitives.  In fact, "father of mine" and "my father" are semantically identical, so I don't even think the Na'vi would see a difference between the genitive use of either.  It's us English speakers trying to apply some significance to how this is ordered.  However it is worth noting that to be unambiguous, when you use multiple genitives modifying each other, you need to have a pronoun on one side or the other, and modifying genitives in one direction from there.  IE my brother's ikran's father's rider would be "Maktoyu oeyä tsmukanä ikranä sempulä" or "Maktoyu sempulä ikranä tsmukanä oeyä".  (The location of Maktoyu in all that doesn't make a difference, save that it must be on one end or the other.)  Anything else with more than 2 genitives in a group becomes unclear who is possessing what, plus becomes difficult to mentally untangle.

So how do you tell the difference between:
1) My brother's ikran's father's rider. 
2) My father's ikran's brother's rider.



Which are likely to different people.

Irayo

[Lurk]

It's done by the order, genetives have a relatively fixed order, you can chain them, but there must be structure.

Also, try not to necro threads; that just gave me an idea.
Posted on: February 03, 2010, 06:00:24 AM -> Posted on: Today at 04:27:55 PM