The function of ''ma [addressee]''

Started by Vawmataw, September 26, 2015, 10:44:48 PM

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Vawmataw

Ma is the vocative marker and when you add a noun clause or a name you can address someone. In the examples I read it's an addition to the sentence, but could it also be a subject or an object?

Examples:
New fìfkxilet ma oeyä tsmukel srak?
Srake tsun oe tivìng fìstxelit ma Neytiriru?

It's a bit weird though, but I ask it if you don't mind.
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Tìtstewan

QuoteNew nga fìfkxilet ma oeyä tsmukel srak?
"Do |oh| my sister want this necklace?"
Hmm, I am not sure, but it looks/sounds weird. :-\

I would go for something like this example:
Ma oeyä tsmuke, ngal new fìfkxilet srak?

QuoteSrake tsun oe tivìng fìstxelit ma Neytiriru?
With ma, it looks/sounds weird as well...

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Tirea Aean

I don't believe it works this way. It would start with Ma <name>, new ngal fì'uti srak?

My question now is, what about:

New ngal fì'uti srak, ma <name>?

^ is that gonna work? Srak is at the end of the question but not at the end of the sentence.

What about:

New ngal fì'uti ma <name> srak?

^ is this how it works?

Tìtstewan

#3
Yeah, the idea (as far as I understood it) is to address an object or indirect object with ma and I, too, believe that this way does not work well.

Edit:
Quote from: Tirea Aean on September 27, 2015, 06:11:07 AM
New ngal fì'uti srak, ma <name>?

^ is that gonna work? Srak is at the end of the question but not at the end of the sentence.
For me, it works as the addressed part is not an (indirect) object. :)

New ngal fì'uti srak, ma <name>?

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Tirea Aean

The addressee cannot be the direct or indirect object nor the subject of the sentence. It's a call to the speaker's audience to pay attention and/or reply to the speech.

Tìtstewan

The Edits.

Quote from: Tirea Aean on September 27, 2015, 06:34:14 AM
The addressee cannot be the direct or indirect object nor the subject of the sentence. It's a call to the speaker's audience to pay attention and/or reply to the speech.
^I think so.

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Vawmataw

Quote from: Tirea Aean on September 27, 2015, 06:34:14 AM
The addressee cannot be the direct or indirect object nor the subject of the sentence. It's a call to the speaker's audience to pay attention and/or reply to the speech.
Thanks for answering to this weird question. :)
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Blue Elf

Seems that with ma you can't use case endings - I can't remember any such example. Horen doesn't say much about this particle:
Quote6.2.8. Direct Address. When speaking to an individual directly the vocative particle ma precedes
the relationship noun, noun phrase or name, oel ayngati kameie, ma oeyä eylan - I see you, my friends, ma Tsu'tey, kempe si nga? - Tsu'tey, what are you doing?.
So your examples doesn't look correct, but can be fixed easily:
Quote* New nga fìfkxilet ma oeyä tsmukel srak?
Srake new ngal fìfkxilet, ma oeyä tsmuke?
Ma oeyä tsmuke, new ngal fìfkxilet srak?
QuoteSrake tsun oe tivìng fìstxelit ma Neytiriru?
If you omit "ma", it is fully correct: Can I give this gift to Neytiri? (you ask for permission someone else).
But if you want to ask Neytiri, you must move dative part:
Srake tsun oe tivìng fìstxelit ngaru, ma Neytiri? -> Neytiri, can I give you this gift?
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
"Oe tasyätxaw ulte koren za'u oehu" (Limonádový Joe)


Vawmataw

What have I done when I wrotw the examples? O_O  :-X :facepalm:
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`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

From what I understand of it, ma is kind of special. It is a particle of address, and is appropriate whenever you address a person, or possibly another living thing. It is not used if you are simply referring to that person or entity. It is equivalent of saying "O <name>" in English, and as I understand, anywhere you can substitute that construct, ma should be appropriate. I use ma oeyä 'eylan, especially when addressing my kitty friends.

I personally don't see either of Vamataw's examples as being odd. The first one is a bit unusual. But, they make sense, as they are addressing a person, even if directly by name.

Where ma might get a little strange is if you address an inanimate object, although this is done in other languages.

Yawey ngahu!
pamrel si ro [email protected]

Toliman

Quote... I use ma oeyä 'eylan, especially when addressing my kitty friends. ...

ma oeyä xxx - this I also use very often.

Tìtstewan

Just mentioning this to avoid confusion: the ma in ma oeyä <xyz> refers to the name/group, not oeyä. One also can say Ma 'eylan oeyä, which is totally the same as Ma oeyä 'eylan. :)

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Blue Elf

Quote from: `Eylan Ayfalulukanä on October 02, 2015, 04:17:35 PM
I personally don't see either of Vamataw's examples as being odd. The first one is a bit unusual. But, they make sense, as they are addressing a person, even if directly by name.
I don't know how it works in another languages, but in Czech, vocative is one of cases (like ergative, accusative, genitive etc.), so mixing more cases together is nonsense from this point of view.
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
"Oe tasyätxaw ulte koren za'u oehu" (Limonádový Joe)


Plumps

In Irish (and I think Latin as well) it's also considered a separate case.
If I think of the rather sparingly used -ya ending, I'd almost compare ma to an adposition. So, it can't be attached to another case.  :-\

Dreamlight

Quote from: Plumps on October 03, 2015, 02:24:21 PM
In Irish (and I think Latin as well) it's also considered a separate case.
If I think of the rather sparingly used -ya ending, I'd almost compare ma to an adposition. So, it can't be attached to another case.  :-\


It's not a case unto itself in Irish (with an actual inflection), though there is a vocative construction, marked with the particle "a", which works like "ma".  Latin does have an actual vocative case.  A and ma are not quite adpositions.  Technically, both words are particles.
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`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

Quote from: Plumps on October 03, 2015, 02:24:21 PM
In Irish (and I think Latin as well) it's also considered a separate case.
If I think of the rather sparingly used -ya ending, I'd almost compare ma to an adposition. So, it can't be attached to another case.  :-\


So, are you saying that a construction like ma oeyä ʼeylan is illegal because oeyä has a case marker? And if so, what Tìtstewan says in ma ʼeylan oeyä is the correct way? I don't ever recall seeing anything in places like Horen that say anything like that.

Yawey ngahu!
pamrel si ro [email protected]

Plumps

Quote from: Dreamlight on October 03, 2015, 06:06:18 PM
Quote from: Plumps on October 03, 2015, 02:24:21 PM
In Irish (and I think Latin as well) it's also considered a separate case.
If I think of the rather sparingly used -ya ending, I'd almost compare ma to an adposition. So, it can't be attached to another case.  :-\


It's not a case unto itself in Irish (with an actual inflection), though there is a vocative construction, marked with the particle "a", which works like "ma".  Latin does have an actual vocative case.  A and ma are not quite adpositions.  Technically, both words are particles.

True ;) It depends which grammar book you ask (in the Christian Brothers it is listed under noun cases). But it's a particle, true. And in certain cases, the noun takes on a special form (even if it's just palatalisation): a Sheáin (from Seán, "Seán!"), a mhic (from mac, "son!"), some comparable to the genitive case. For some grammarians that suffices to be seen as a separate case.
But never mind :)

Quote from: `Eylan Ayfalulukanä on October 03, 2015, 10:20:50 PM
So, are you saying that a construction like ma oeyä ʼeylan is illegal because oeyä has a case marker? And if so, what Tìtstewan says in ma ʼeylan oeyä is the correct way? I don't ever recall seeing anything in places like Horen that say anything like that.

No that's not what I meant and if I caused confusion, tsap'alute si oe :-X
ma oeyä 'eylan / ma 'eylan oeyä are both correct, as Tìtstewan said. As is mì oeyä kelku / mì helku oeyä sl., sl., sl. That's why I said I'd almost compare it to an adposition because ma (even though it's a particle) behaves a little bit like it.

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

Irayo nìtxan, ma Plumps. Tslam oel set, pe'u ngal fmi pivlltxe.

Yawey ngahu!
pamrel si ro [email protected]

Blue Elf

Quote from: `Eylan Ayfalulukanä on October 03, 2015, 10:20:50 PM
Quote from: Plumps on October 03, 2015, 02:24:21 PM
In Irish (and I think Latin as well) it's also considered a separate case.
If I think of the rather sparingly used -ya ending, I'd almost compare ma to an adposition. So, it can't be attached to another case.  :-\


So, are you saying that a construction like ma oeyä ʼeylan is illegal because oeyä has a case marker? And if so, what Tìtstewan says in ma ʼeylan oeyä is the correct way? I don't ever recall seeing anything in places like Horen that say anything like that.
As already said, ma oeyä 'eylan is perfectly correct. Note what Tìtstewan said also: ma connects with 'eylan, not with oeyä (ma 'eylan itself is ok, but *ma oeyä ? It's apparently unfinished construction, some part is missing).
So even if we treat ma as adposition, it still can't be used with another case. Everything works correctly.
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
"Oe tasyätxaw ulte koren za'u oehu" (Limonádový Joe)