Author Topic: Thoughts on our name-phrases in sentences  (Read 952 times)

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Offline Kame Ayyo’koti

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Thoughts on our name-phrases in sentences
« on: February 14, 2014, 03:27:31 am »
A lot of us here have chosen "Na'vi" names for ourselves, usually a word or phrase of some sort. Mine, K<er>ame Ay-yo'ko-ti, is a verb phrase that's supposed to mean, "(I am) Seeing Circles." (I haven't asked whether it's correct or not. If I made a mistake please tell me, lol.)

I wrote this sentence that makes my name the subject:
Kerame-l Ayo'koti num<ei>e lì'fya-ti leNa'vi.
Attempted meaning: Kerame Ayo'koti learns(YAY!) the Na'vi language.

But as I wrote it, I realized: How do I handle a name like this when it comes to case markers? I chose to tag my "first" name, the idea being that "Ayo'koti" is just "the rest of my name," like added description - like an adjective; for example, someone could just call me "Kerame" for short.

But now that I think of it, "Kerame Ayo'koti-l" would be less confusing, if we treat my entire name as one big "compound word" whose parts can't be moved around. Because then it's obvious the -ti on Ayo'ko-ti doesn't connect to the verb in this sentence. (If someone didn't know that was my name, the above sentence might confuse them.)

We might also add dashes to our names to make it more clear that it's like a compound word: "Kerame-Ayo'kotil" (Although this would mean a LOT of dashes for people with long names, LOL!) So the better form would be:

Kerame-Ayo'koti-l num<ei>e lì'fya-ti leNa'vi.

Whatever the case, if having my name as the subject is too confusing, I thought this would be the best way of saying it:

Oe-l/Po-e-l alu Kerame-Ayo'koti num<ei>e lì'fya-ti leNa'vi.
A.m.: I/She who is Kerame Ayo'koti learns(YAY!) the Na'vi language.

As far as I know the Na'vi don't have multi-part names like we do. (Or do they? It's been a while since I saw the movie.) It would be interesting to know how other languages with case markers handle this issue when multi-part names are used, like first and last name.
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Offline Plumps

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Re: Thoughts on our name-phrases in sentences
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2014, 04:07:15 am »
Yes, that’s an ongoing issue. I go around that by just saying tsmuk/an/e alu XY. It’s longer I’ll admit but it gives me the safe passage of attaching all the case endings on the noun tsmuk. :D

Part of an answer to your question can be found here with an addendum here.

But there he speaks of nouns attributed by other nouns or adjectives, no case in which there is a verb involved which makes it harder in a way. But in that case I think you would treat the verb as a noun if it is part of a compound.

Concerning the names, we have Neytiri te Tskaha Mo’at’ite and I think Tsu’tey te Rongloa Ateyitan as a full names. How they behave in full form I don’t know. I guess the Na’vi would only address each other with full name but nobody would say “Neytiri te Tskaha Mo’at’ite ate teylu at the communal fireplace.” ;) Too long, too wordy, too pompous…

Concerning your name, I understood your name when I read it, though technically, it’s ayyo’koti with two Y’s. They don’t elide as vowels often do, although in fast speech you would probably hear only
[a.ˈjoʔ.ko.ti]

Your example sentence has one minor though essential error; nume in Na’vi is intransitive, i.e. no l and t endings are allowed. That’s usually solved via the topical ri-ending.

Lì’fyari leNa’vi Kerame-Ayyo’koti numeie.* – and then you don’t need other case endings at all ;D

Offline Kame Ayyo’koti

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Re: Thoughts on our name-phrases in sentences
« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2014, 05:46:43 am »
Yes, that’s an ongoing issue. I go around that by just saying tsmuk/an/e alu XY. It’s longer I’ll admit but it gives me the safe passage of attaching all the case endings on the noun tsmuk. :D
Yeah, I think I'll stick to that, too. Much easier, less messy.

As for the verb in my name, I thought about "nouning" it, but would it be allowed? I mean, I know words can be derived like this:
Na'vi => nì-Na'vi, le-Na'vi
But because Na'vi words must be officially approved, we're not allowed to derive words as we please. Is the use of tì- <us> productive (can we use it "noun" any verbs we want?), or do such words need to be approved first? I they'd need approval.
I'm not even sure how my name would look if I tried it. Maybe this?:
Tì-k<us>ame Ay-yo'ko-ä?

Kerame Ayyo'koti has a much nicer ring to it, I think. :P


Your example sentence has one minor though essential error; nume in Na’vi is intransitive, i.e. no l and t endings are allowed. That’s usually solved via the topical ri-ending.

Lì’fyari leNa’vi Kerame-Ayyo’koti numeie.* – and then you don’t need other case endings at all ;D



Can the topical be placed at the end of the sentence?:
Kerame-Ayyo’koti numeie Lì’fyari leNa’vi.
Or:
Kerame-Ayyo’koti Lì’fyari leNa’vi numeie.

I'd like the name in front.
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Offline Tìtstewan

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Re: Thoughts on our name-phrases in sentences
« Reply #3 on: February 14, 2014, 07:14:20 am »
Topic goes usually first, but style and poetic make exceptions. :)

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Offline Plumps

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Re: Thoughts on our name-phrases in sentences
« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2014, 09:17:32 am »
As for the verb in my name, I thought about "nouning" it, but would it be allowed? I mean, I know words can be derived like this:
Na'vi => nì-Na'vi, le-Na'vi
But because Na'vi words must be officially approved, we're not allowed to derive words as we please. Is the use of tì- <us> productive (can we use it "noun" any verbs we want?), or do such words need to be approved first? I they'd need approval.
I'm not even sure how my name would look if I tried it. Maybe this?:
Tì-k<us>ame Ay-yo'ko-ä?

Kerame Ayyo'koti has a much nicer ring to it, I think. :P[/font]

Yes, tì- ‹us› is fully productive (where it makes sense). So, tìkusame ~ the (act) of Seeing.

What I meant though was, that you don’t transform it into a (grammatical) noun but just treat it as such. Because you treat Kerame here like a name, i.e. a noun. If I’d use the ‘short’ form of your name without the go-around of tsmuk, I’d use Keramel, Keramer, Keramet etc. Just because I treat it as a noun/name in this instance.

Offline Blue Elf

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Re: Thoughts on our name-phrases in sentences
« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2014, 02:23:59 pm »
It would be interesting to know how other languages with case markers handle this issue when multi-part names are used, like first and last name.
If you are interested, I can say you a few words how it works in Czech: Let's have simple sentence like
Josef Novák vidí strom (Joe Novak see the tree). Red part is subject in agentive case - but this case in Czech has no case ending, it is base form of word. Blue part is object in patientive case - which in this case also do not have any ending :)
It is not so easy always, as we do not have just case endings, but patterns of word changes based on gender and number.

Let's try something different:
vidím Josefa Nováka - I see Josef Novak. Again we have subject in red with agentive case (no ending) and subject in blue in patientive case. Now you can see case ending in action - and we put case ending to bot parts of full name (as both of them can be treated as nouns). But surname can be also adjective. In such case we also do some changes even with adjective (here I must admit I don't remember what rules we use in this case, what a shame....)

Josef Zelený vidí strom -> Joe Green see the tree
vidím Josefa Zeleného -> I see joe Green
As you can see, Na'vi is much simpler  :)
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
"Oe tasyätxaw ulte koren za'u oehu" (Limonádový Joe)


Offline Tìtstewan

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Re: Thoughts on our name-phrases in sentences
« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2014, 02:59:32 pm »
Very interesting ma Blue Elf!
I would like to show the German version, it's funny :P
German solve it by the help of grammar articles:

(Der) Josef Novak sieht den Wolf
Josef Novak see the wolve
subject verb object patientive

Der Wolf sieht (den) Josef Novak
The wolve see Josef Novak
subject verb object patientive

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Offline `Eylan Ayfalulukanä

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Re: Thoughts on our name-phrases in sentences
« Reply #7 on: February 14, 2014, 04:07:56 pm »
Another thought: A name is kind of an antipassive use, as you don't (normally) have a subject and object. Since circles don't normally 'see' (Although with kame, they might ;)  ), you might be able to get away with just Kerame Ayyo'ko. Names are a personal thing, and generally, if a name is reasonably grammatically correct, it is OK.

In the case of my Na'vi name, the genitive ending is quite important as the idea I want to convey is the thanators have chose me as their friend, and not the other way around. I also deliberately used the long plural form to emphasize that I am the friend of more than one thanator.

Over time, people here have responded to my fairly long name by shortening it to just 'Eylan. Although that is a very generic word in Na'vi, it has stuck. So although most folks here make a real attempt to keep things as grammatical as they can, any language will change with time depending on how its used and understood.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2014, 04:12:25 pm by `Eylan Ayfalulukanä »

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