How RDA Conducts Business (cont. from Parkers office on pandora)

[Zefanaya]

Hey guys I made this as an extension for the Parkers Office On Pandora thread I made this is so all of us can discuss how RDA conducts off world business or just any business at all.

Eywa ngahu

[kintìomum]

I guess the main thing in the RDA conducting their business "above" orbit is just one:
profit oriented.

A short (slightly humorous look) on orbital industry:

I guess they start with a rocket to lift stuff out of Earths gravity well (maybe they even got a spacelift which would greatly reduce the cost of carrying stuff up) and feed it into their orbital factories and dockyard.
Another -more likely since cheaper- source for raw materials is the asteroids or one of the many moons in our solar system.
The product of the factories is as good as sure something that needs microgravity to be made. If not you can create it on Earth for a fraction of the price (you don't have to pay large sums for air and climate down here, no matter how bad it gets).
These products are then either transferred into the docks or dropped back to Earth (yay, first profit!).
The dockyard spits small craft for hauling cargo around, medium sized ones to haul small ones and more cargo over long distances, big ones for trips to the edge of the system, parts for the factories and the occasional ISV if they feel very happy and had a number of great quarterly reports.

Now, where the ISVs go we know. The small craft are used in orbit to help expanding the factories and bigger ones send off to find/exploit more ressources.

How do humans fit in? Well, bad. Humans need everything a robot doesn't need: air, water, food, heating (it's coooold out there. Unless you're not farer away than Earths orbit and get in the sunlight. There it's HOT!) and a place to waste time -sometimes called sleeping or recreational time.
But there is -sadly- one thing a human can that no robot is really as good at as a human: independent thinking and fast assesment of changing situations. A robot won't bother if the rock he's working on is about to slam into a smelter, he'll do what he's built for: dig more ore!
A human tends to look around, sees that his ground is going to get nastily hot and starts pushing his ground back to safety. Or he starts yelling and gets panic. But that's not very often with proper training.
So somehow we need humans up there.

[Zefanaya]

Nice, that is some good thinking, personally I think we might have a moon base to sort of pick up stuff from ships on the outer edge of the system. Thanks for getting this off to a good start. In addition to manufacturing, they appear to have connections with military (they have kick butt weapons (still like a bow and arrow and a knife) ). I knda see them as like Kroger brand just with guns.

Eywa ngahu

[Tsu'roen]

So far we have no indication that there is any advanced robotics. Everything we see on Pandora is either manned or remote controlled. So I'd say there are no independent robots.

As for off Earth factories: most likely they will be on the moon and on Mars. The ASG actually even states that (Warnings XV).
A planetary body with low gravity is most suitable:
- it is cheap to get things up into orbit
- housing and factory space is easily obtained by going underground
- Mars and even the Moon contain water thus saving you from the need of bringing it up from earth. Mars even has an atmosphere. It's thin but something to work with.
- low gravity is better than no gravity for the human body and for most industrial processes.

Special factories will exist in orbit of Earth, Mars and Moon for processes that require zero gravity.

Mining will be done on Mars and in the asteroid belt.

The ISVs will most likely be build in orbit around the Moon or Mars

There may be (gas) mining in the Jupiter and Saturn systems but those are already quiet far out for normal space craft and not far enough for the ISV to get up to speed. So it really needs to be worth it.

[Zefanaya]

I agree, one thing that made me think that mining was done off planet (earth) is that when Jake said to Eywa "Their is no green left where we came from, they killed their mother" which says to me that earth is pretty much gone to pot and that their was not much left aside from big cities and RDA and Taco Bell... sorry for some reason I really want a taco right now.

Eywa ngahu

[Zefanaya]

Ok it just popped into my mind I want to learn more about the Venture Star how it works and are their others like because I think it would make since that their should be 2 of them going back and forth 'tween Pandora seeing how it takes almost 6 years to get their, also the movie took place of the course of what 6 or 7 months (I really have no idea how long it took I will look at the time index on Jakes 1st video log and his last when I see Avatar again) so why would the Venture Star still be in orbit because something had to take the RDA's back to earth those shuttles are not long range and one was destroyed. Let me know what you guys think.

Eywa ngahu.

[Will Txankamuse]

Ok it just popped into my mind I want to learn more about the Venture Star how it works and are their others like because I think it would make since that their should be 2 of them going back and forth 'tween Pandora seeing how it takes almost 6 years to get their, also the movie took place of the course of what 6 or 7 months (I really have no idea how long it took I will look at the time index on Jakes 1st video log and his last when I see Avatar again) so why would the Venture Star still be in orbit because something had to take the RDA's back to earth those shuttles are not long range and one was destroyed. Let me know what you guys think.

Pretty sure it's three months since the start of Jake's log and the final one.

the ISVs loiter in orbit for a year:

Mission Profile: 0.46 year initial acceleration @ 1.5 g to reach 0.7 c; 5.83 years cruise @ 0.7 c; 0.46 year deceleration; 1 year loiter in orbit around Pandora [source]

hence it doesn't make total sense for Quaritch to say 'I'll have you on a shuttle tonight' - unless they plan to just put Jake back into Cryo for nine months before the ISV leaves Pandora.

I would imagine they cut short the loiter when all of RDA left Pandora though.

Check the Pandorapedia for all sorts of information that might be useful for this thread btw.

Will

[Tsu'roen]

I think 'I can have you on a shuttle tonight' was just a figure of speach.

But there was another incident were it sounded serious:

JAKE watches with a growing dread as his words condemn the
people he has grown to love.
JAKE (RECORDED)
They're never going to leave Hometree.
Quaritch FREEZES the recording.
QUARITCH
Since a deal can't be made -- it gets
real simple.
(to Jake, icily)
So thanks. I'm getting all emotional. I
might just give you a big wet kiss.
GRACE
Parker, we have to talk, like rational
people.
SELFRIDGE
Well, I'd cherish that, but unfortunately
you're out of here on the next shuttle.
All of you. I'm shutting down the Avatar
Program, effective now.
ON JAKE, GRACE AND NORM, speechless.

INT. BIO LAB
MAX and the lab staff are glumly packing files and equipment,
under the watchful eye of armed SEC-OPS TROOPERS. JAKE,
GRACE, NORM stare bleakly at each other.
GRACE
They bulldozed a sacred site on purpose,
to trigger a response. They're
fabricating this war to get what they
want.
NORM
I can't believe that.
JAKE
Yup. That's how it's done. When people
are sitting on s*** you want, you make
them your enemy. Then you're justified in
taking it.
TRUDY RUNS into the lab, breathless. She's wearing full
flight gear and carrying her helmet.
TRUDY
Sec-ops is rolling the gunships. They're
gonna hit Hometree!
JAKE
When?
TRUDY
Now. We're spooling up now! I gotta go.

Red indicates cut parts

Even though those lines were cut we still see them packing. And at that point it looks like Selfridge is serious about sending them up with the next shuttle.

[Zefanaya]

Wow all of that cut stuff should have been left in, and it actually makes that scene make more sense irayo

[Zefanaya]

We have a global "consortium" that is not the only, but is "the largest" of the NGA's (non-governmental agencies). This is a prediction of the future, and it really makes sense; a sort-of "Corporate Feudalism" where the kings and queens (CEOs, CFOs, COOs, and other execs) really do hold power over life and death of the rest of us. Private security is a pleasant name for private army. If, as a corporation, you can get the rights to sell water (and this has been accomplished in third-world countries even now), you can take the water from the land and sell it to the people who live on that land. They must buy water from you or they will die. Pretty sweet, huh?

Okay, so let's multiply that by 4 or 5. The RDA (and it's corporate allies) manufacture breathable air, water, food, housing, and careers. In fact, once you are "off-planet," you are really now a citizen of the RDA, not any particular country. When you are at sea, especially in international waters, the captain of that ship is high-lord and master. This may not be as draconian (in our time) as it was in the 600's to 1800's, but in the RDA future it is EXACTLY how it is. Selfridge really had it in his power to politely ask the Colonel to dispose of anyone, for any reason, should he desire. So, with thousands of workers "off planet," what's to say that there are not abuses in the system? What if the next "boss" that comes to Pandora is more like the Colonel and less like Selfridge?

How hard would it be to create a penal colony on Pandora and dump all of society's "undesirables" there, like they originally did with Australia? Sure, it is an expensive price at first, but they may make deals that involve "work-to-release" programs that involve stripping Pandora clean (of everything living). You don't have to pay prisoners, and you do save a LOT of money on medical insurance and other benefits. Labor (actually paying your people) is always one of the most expensive aspects of any business enterprise. And we are talking about the RDA here. Couldn't it be possible that the RDA could (I am resisting saying "The Empire Strikes Back" but I am sensing a great disturbance in the Force, where critics of A2 will try to be clever by calling the sequel just that) "strike back" by sending the dregs of society to do their dirty work? They save money on Earth-side prisons, and "body dump" a lot of people they are wasting money on feeding, and they do get some labor value out of them before Pandora kills them. I doubt the public would care much about prisoner's fates on Pandora, if the RDA decided to use "human garbage" as cheap labor.

Okay, now I have this slime coating me. I think I got a little too deep into that post. I need a shower--SET!

the above was written by Kaltxì Palulukan! and used by permission

this was why I branched out my "Parkers Office On Panodra thread" I had to wait for permission to use this but this is sort of what I want to discuss now on top of the very informative discussion taking place I think we can do both at the same time don't you? and once more irayo for getting this thread off to a good start guys lets keep the thread going.

Eywa ngahu

[Zefanaya]

Kaltxì, ma aytsmukan ulte aytsmuke

I was wondering what the Na'vi would do with all of the buildings and stuff we built on Pandora would they avoid them or what, RDA scared the face of their planet for 100's of years.


Eywa ngahu

[Tsu'roen]

I think there will be as much repair as possible by the remaining humans with aid from the Na'vi. The "science guys" may use the remote controlled dozers to fill in the open pit mine. Most of the removed earth should be on a pile nearby or close to Hell's Gate so that shouldn't take forever. The scar from the mine is not too big at this point so the forest will reclaim it in no time - not with giant trees right away but first with some smaller trees and bushes.
The buildings that are not maintained will just be overgrown by the rainforest like the cities of the Maya on Yucatan.

Yes, it may take 100 years until everything is gone but all those sites may be already green when the next ship arrives.

[Zefanaya]

Agreed maybe the science guys will also start to dismantle some of the building so they are over grown quicker or maybe the Na'vi would build like a memorial on that site or something.


Eywa ngahu

[Eight]

Agreed maybe the science guys will also start to dismantle some of the building so they are over grown quicker or maybe the Na'vi would build like a memorial on that site or something.

*Some* maybe. But don't forget those humans that stayed need to breath and will want a few places (e.g. to sleep, eat etc.) where they don't have to wear filter masks.

Besides which, although I'm sure there'd be enough masks to keep the humans breathing for the rest of their life... there would be issues if filter cartridges degrade over time even when not in use. For instance, many of the filters (particular the microfibre elements) that a company I am all too familiar with (and are "world leaders") make, would be pretty dangerous if left unused for say, five->ten years¹. Although obviously technology has improved if they can get those filters to survive a six year transport to Pandora.

Also makes me wonder how the breathing systems in the buildings and AMP suits etc. is achieved. If it's also filter tech, I wonder if by the time of the next movie (since I'm guessing it'll be set at least five years beyond the first one), all the humans that stayed on Pandora could be dead, and the bases could need significant work to reestablish. Not going to be an easy task with a planetful of now "extremely" hostile natives.

¹ Actually, many would be unusable after three years exposed to atmospheric conditions (might be fine in a vacuum/space -- don't know) but "we" are not allowed to tell people that.

[kintìomum]

I think there is at least one building they can't easily dismantle.
Hell's Gate got a plant for the production of antimatter and that stuff really makes nuclear waste look like a summer stroll.
You can't just store it anywhere (except in very special containers). You can't just dump these in a deep hole for future generations to worry about (a leak would result in a nice new crater). Antimatter is damn expensive to create (nowadays, we don't know about the price tag in Avatar) and it's a very valuable commodity.
Every ISV arriving in the Alpha Centauri system needs antimatter to be able to get back to Earth. So if they keep the production up they have a very good argument why the crew should accept their requests...

[Eight]

I wouldn't like to guess how many people it takes to run an antimatter plant though... and somehow I don't see the Na'vi taking day jobs any time soon. My guess, science bods shut it down but it gets left more or less in one piece.

In Avatar, antimatter is obviously far less valuable that unobtanium or using loads of it to mine on Pandora wouldn't be worth the effort.

[Tsu'roen]

Yes - they for sure keep Hell's Gate, it's factory and the antimatter plant going. Most of those processes should be automated anyway. They also may need to keep some minor mining going for required raw materials.

As for the air processing units and filters - they most likely are able to produce them on site.

[Eight]

As for the air processing units and filters - they most likely are able to produce them on site.

Possible, but (I can't remember exactly how many humans stayed), with so few humans left then do they really have the resources to keep the antimatter plant running (does that provide the power for the bases too?), the general base systems, the production of life support equipment etc. etc.? Even with automated processes, it obviously took some work given the number of non-Marines out there.

And if it was you, would you want to be working all day when everyone else was out enjoying the forest. Pxasik!!!

[Tsu'roen]

We really don't know how many humans were allowed to stay precisely. My guess is pretty much everybody from the Avatar program and a few others that stood up against the RDA during the battle. It won't be too many in total though.

One real interesting question is also how many humans were on Pandora left after the battle. It is for sure highly unlikely that any of the RDA troops survived that were in the attack on the Tree of Souls. I mean those animals were really after them and surely not up for negotiation about a surrender. So Sec-Ops on Pandora was largely wiped out. Only the small guard and tower crew left at Hell's gate may have survived.

But how many mine and factory workers, administrative staff, ... were left in the end. I suppose it were still well over 100 (more likely over 200) that had to leave Pandora. And there things get ugly as the ISV supposedly only has 100 hibernation chambers for passengers + 20 for the ships crew (5 of the 25 are always on duty). So quiet a few may have to draw straws for the ticket home - and those who draw the short may find themselves on an EVA without a spacesuit ...

[kintìomum]

Perhaps that's one of the reasons why they keep Hell's Gate active?
The one's that were the loudest are sent back directly and those more following in line are given the opportunity to stay until they get a way back.
Then they would have some personnel to keep the complex running that won't be totally on their side but doesn't try everything to disturb or sabotage them (the infamous suitcase-nuke would be no problem with antimatter since you just need to switch the containing field off to get a big blast).
Speaking of antimatter: If you got enough energy at hand it's relatively easy to produce and since Pandora is a whole moon ready to be exploited there surely won't be a shortage in energy (fossil fuels for example).
Once you got Unobtanium it's a lot easier to carry/store antimatter. You need a strong magnetic field to hold it away from matter (every matter! Opening a box to take a quick glance at the bad stuff is no good idea!) and Unobtanium holds the magnetic field it was subject to during it's cool down for an almost infinite time.

Back to topic:
Kaltxì palulukan mentioned "legal slavery" to bind workforce to the company.
The concept is simple: You get a big payment that's almost guaranteed to make you sign up and only the small print lists the cost for everyday stuff which you're required to survive at a price that ends you deeper in debt every day.
How great is the chance for the RDA to employ this method in your opinion?