Neytiri clan leader

[Swizaw Nguway]

Hey. I just saw avatar for the eigth time and it suddenly occured to me. Why does tsu'tey become olo'eyktan when neytiri is clearly told by eytukan that she must lead the people? It cant because shes female, because the eastern sea tribe has a female leader. Any ideas?

[bagget00]

Wow. never thought of that. I would like to know as well.
BTW, lucky, 8 times.

[Tsa'räni]

Tsu'tey was in line for the position of Olo'eyktan and Neytiri was being groomed as the next Tsahik.  Male and female Na'vi seem to be considered more or less equal from what we've seen, and Neytiri is a hunter, so I think Eytukan was just telling his daughter goodbye.  As a hunter, and the next Tsahik, she would carry responsibility to protect her people.

Edit - btw, I don't think Eytukan says "lead the people"...pretty sure he says, "protect the people".  Or something like that.

Edit2 - Sorry, heh.  Regarding Neytiri as Tsahik, I'm not sure anyone knows exactly what the deal was then.  Was she still going to be Tsahik, or not going to be Tsahik and Tsu'tey would choose a mate and she would be Tsahik, or...  It's open to interpretation, but it doesn't matter much for this topic.  She's a hunter and would be protecting the people no matter what.

[Will Txankamuse]

I agree with other posters, Eytukan says 'Omatikaeru tìhawnu sivi' - so he's not asking Neytiri to lead.  Tsu'tey was always the heir to the Olo'eyktan, and Neytiri was always going to be the Tsahik.

I imagine the passing of the bow was more a hereditary (blood line) thing than an implied transfer of power.  The bow is probably considered a family heirloom that is passed on from generation to generation.

Given that Neytiri's full name: Neytiri te Ckaha Mo'at'ite shows she comes from the 'Chaka' clan, and I would guess that this means that Eytukan and Mo'at are probably from the same clan too (?), but Tsutey's name: Tsu'tey te Rongloa Ateyo'itan shows that he comes from a different, 'Rongloa' clan, it's likely that succession in Na'vi tribes is done on some form of merit, possibly predetermined sometime in the past, rather than bloodline.  It's also possible that the arranged(?) marriage between Tsu'tey and Neytiri was to form some kind of inter-tribe alliance.

Will

[TorukMakto!]

I agree with other posters, Eytukan says 'Omatikaeru tìhawnu sivi' - so he's not asking Neytiri to lead.  Tsu'tey was always the heir to the Olo'eyktan, and Neytiri was always going to be the Tsahik.

I imagine the passing of the bow was more a hereditary (blood line) thing than an implied transfer of power.  The bow is probably considered a family heirloom that is passed on from generation to generation.

Given that Neytiri's full name: Neytiri te Ckaha Mo'at'ite shows she comes from the 'Chaka' clan, and I would guess that this means that Eytukan and Mo'at are probably from the same clan too (?), but Tsutey's name: Tsu'tey te Rongloa Ateyo'itan shows that he comes from a different, 'Rongloa' clan, it's likely that succession in Na'vi tribes is done on some form of merit, possibly predetermined sometime in the past, rather than bloodline.  It's also possible that the arranged(?) marriage between Tsu'tey and Neytiri was to form some kind of inter-tribe alliance.

Will

I'd second that,
Also in the Avatar wiki page, we can see that Neytiri was the Olo'eyktan for one day and then Tsu'tey took the place, I guess that was the day that took them to reach the Tree Of Souls.

http://james-camerons-avatar.wikia.com/wiki/Clan_Leader

[Zefanaya]

Eytukan tasked Neytiri with protecting the people as they were traveling if Tsu'te was separated from them Neytiri being tasked with protecting the people would then become a temporary leader, at least that's what I got from it. I kinda wonder why Mo'at did not become a temp. Olo'eykatan is it because she is full Tsa'hik, or because Neytiri was asked to protect the people? also what if Jake had of come to find the dieing Eytukan first would he have given the bow to him or just died with it or asked jake to tell Tsu'te or Neytiri that they were in charge?

Eywa ngahu

[Tsu'roen]

I agree with other posters, Eytukan says 'Omatikaeru tìhawnu sivi' - so he's not asking Neytiri to lead.  Tsu'tey was always the heir to the Olo'eyktan, and Neytiri was always going to be the Tsahik.

I imagine the passing of the bow was more a hereditary (blood line) thing than an implied transfer of power.  The bow is probably considered a family heirloom that is passed on from generation to generation.

Given that Neytiri's full name: Neytiri te Ckaha Mo'at'ite shows she comes from the 'Chaka' clan, and I would guess that this means that Eytukan and Mo'at are probably from the same clan too (?), but Tsutey's name: Tsu'tey te Rongloa Ateyo'itan shows that he comes from a different, 'Rongloa' clan, it's likely that succession in Na'vi tribes is done on some form of merit, possibly predetermined sometime in the past, rather than bloodline.  It's also possible that the arranged(?) marriage between Tsu'tey and Neytiri was to form some kind of inter-tribe alliance.

Will

I'd second that,
Also in the Avatar wiki page, we can see that Neytiri was the Olo'eyktan for one day and then Tsu'tey took the place, I guess that was the day that took them to reach the Tree Of Souls.

http://james-camerons-avatar.wikia.com/wiki/Clan_Leader

I would always be careful with information from an open source website especially on a shaky ground like this with so little information from official side.

Also I do not think Neytiri was Olo'eyktan at any time. It is much more likely and plausible that until Tsu'tey took over Mo'at lead the clan. Only she had the necessary experience. That Neytiri got the bow does not mean anything in this regard as she even kept it when Tsu'tey was clearly instated as Olo'eyktan. Following the thought that whoever has the bow is Olo'eyktan Tsu'tey should have had it.

It is also pretty clear from the movie that Mo'at continued to be the Tsahik of the Omatikaya.
I think Neytiri's status at that time was pretty shaky: she was bonded to an alien traitor who was banned from the clan (by herself). This disqualified her from taking over the position as Tsahik after Mo'at. That is actually in the 2007 script p. 96:
Mo'at: Neytiri! If you choose this path, you can never be Tsahik. Your life will be wasted.
Neytiri: I have chosen.

We may never know what her fate would have looked like if Jake hadn't returned as Toruk Makto and not only reinstated his own position but also Neytiri's.

Eytukan tasked Neytiri with protecting the people as they were traveling if Tsu'te was separated from them Neytiri being tasked with protecting the people would then become a temporary leader, at least that's what I got from it. I kinda wonder why Mo'at did not become a temp. Olo'eykatan is it because she is full Tsa'hik, or because Neytiri was asked to protect the people? also what if Jake had of come to find the dieing Eytukan first would he have given the bow to him or just died with it or asked jake to tell Tsu'te or Neytiri that they were in charge?

Eywa ngahu

Yes, Mo'at was the most qualified to lead the Omatikaya during the interregnum.
Eytukan was dying and very worried about the clan. So I also think it is plausible that he gave the bow and task to protect the people to Neytiri a) because she was there and b) because she was his daughter. But did this mean anything in regards to the new Olo'eyktan? I don't think so.

But I really doubt he would have given the bow to anybody. Tsu'tey? Yes!  Jake? A definite NO! - not in that situation.

[TorukMakto!]

Eytukan tasked Neytiri with protecting the people as they were traveling if Tsu'te was separated from them Neytiri being tasked with protecting the people would then become a temporary leader, at least that's what I got from it. I kinda wonder why Mo'at did not become a temp. Olo'eykatan is it because she is full Tsa'hik, or because Neytiri was asked to protect the people? also what if Jake had of come to find the dieing Eytukan first would he have given the bow to him or just died with it or asked jake to tell Tsu'te or Neytiri that they were in charge?

Eywa ngahu

Neytiri indeed was a temp leader for a day, when she lead the people to the Tree Of Souls. Tsu'tey was separated from the tribe, he and some other hunters, once Hometree was destroyed, escaped with their respective Ikran's in the air, while the tribe was fleeing on the ground.
I assume that Mo'at didn't become a temp leader because she wasn't a hunter nor trained for such,although Neytiri is the successive Tsahik she is well trained in combat thus can protect the people not only spiritually but combat wise as well.
What if Jake found Eytukan first, that's a hard question, Eytukan was terribly mad and disappointed from Jake, whether will he forgive him or not at the moment of tide s arguable. We saw that Mo'at forgave hm, and as Eytukan being a wise leader he'll make a decision based on knowledge and what is best for the tribe and less take into consideration about his personal feelings. I'd go with protect the tribe and let Neytiri/Tsu'tey be the leader.

[Zefanaya]

Eytukan tasked Neytiri with protecting the people as they were traveling if Tsu'te was separated from them Neytiri being tasked with protecting the people would then become a temporary leader, at least that's what I got from it. I kinda wonder why Mo'at did not become a temp. Olo'eykatan is it because she is full Tsa'hik, or because Neytiri was asked to protect the people? also what if Jake had of come to find the dieing Eytukan first would he have given the bow to him or just died with it or asked jake to tell Tsu'te or Neytiri that they were in charge?

Eywa ngahu

Neytiri indeed was a temp leader for a day, when she lead the people to the Tree Of Souls. Tsu'tey was separated from the tribe, he and some other hunters, once Hometree was destroyed, escaped with their respective Ikran's in the air, while the tribe was fleeing on the ground.
I assume that Mo'at didn't become a temp leader because she wasn't a hunter nor trained for such,although Neytiri is the successive Tsahik she is well trained in combat thus can protect the people not only spiritually but combat wise as well.
What if Jake found Eytukan first, that's a hard question, Eytukan was terribly mad and disappointed from Jake, whether will he forgive him or not at the moment of tide s arguable. We saw that Mo'at forgave hm, and as Eytukan being a wise leader he'll make a decision based on knowledge and what is best for the tribe and less take into consideration about his personal feelings. I'd go with protect the tribe and let Neytiri/Tsu'tey be the leader.

Agreed and good incite

[Tsu'roen]

...
I assume that Mo'at didn't become a temp leader because she wasn't a hunter nor trained for such,although Neytiri is the successive Tsahik she is well trained in combat thus can protect the people not only spiritually but combat wise as well.
...

What makes you think Mo'at did not have the same training as Neytiri - as hunter & warrior before she became Tsahik?
Of course as Tsahik she isn't going hunting or flying around with an Ikran anymore. Those are the sacrifices of the position.
But I am very sure that in her youth she was exactely like Neytiri and went through the same training and ritual tests as any other member of the clan.

[TorukMakto!]

...
I assume that Mo'at didn't become a temp leader because she wasn't a hunter nor trained for such,although Neytiri is the successive Tsahik she is well trained in combat thus can protect the people not only spiritually but combat wise as well.
...

What makes you think Mo'at did not have the same training as Neytiri - as hunter & warrior before she became Tsahik?
Of course as Tsahik she isn't going hunting or flying around with an Ikran anymore. Those are the sacrifices of the position.
But I am very sure that in her youth she was exactely like Neytiri and went through the same training and ritual tests as any other member of the clan.

Of course it's only an assumption of mine but, not every member of the clan trains to be taronyu. The way she moves, her body language and the way she reacts are nothing like Neytiri, Neytiri has that very soft, agile and classy movement, body language which also transports to her combat skills, due to that I get the feeling from her of a classic, quite perfect taronyu. Cannot say I see and sense the same from Mo'at, of course if any reliable source says that indeed Mo'at was trained as a taronyu at her teens I'd accept that with no problem. But for me it seemed like she only mastered the spiritual aspects (which is a big rule) but she didn't master that combat ones.

Eytukan tasked Neytiri with protecting the people as they were traveling if Tsu'te was separated from them Neytiri being tasked with protecting the people would then become a temporary leader, at least that's what I got from it. I kinda wonder why Mo'at did not become a temp. Olo'eykatan is it because she is full Tsa'hik, or because Neytiri was asked to protect the people? also what if Jake had of come to find the dieing Eytukan first would he have given the bow to him or just died with it or asked jake to tell Tsu'te or Neytiri that they were in charge?

Eywa ngahu

Neytiri indeed was a temp leader for a day, when she lead the people to the Tree Of Souls. Tsu'tey was separated from the tribe, he and some other hunters, once Hometree was destroyed, escaped with their respective Ikran's in the air, while the tribe was fleeing on the ground.
I assume that Mo'at didn't become a temp leader because she wasn't a hunter nor trained for such,although Neytiri is the successive Tsahik she is well trained in combat thus can protect the people not only spiritually but combat wise as well.
What if Jake found Eytukan first, that's a hard question, Eytukan was terribly mad and disappointed from Jake, whether will he forgive him or not at the moment of tide s arguable. We saw that Mo'at forgave hm, and as Eytukan being a wise leader he'll make a decision based on knowledge and what is best for the tribe and less take into consideration about his personal feelings. I'd go with protect the tribe and let Neytiri/Tsu'tey be the leader.

Agreed and good incite

Irayo.

[Coyote]

I think Neytiri's status at that time was pretty shaky: she was bonded to an alien traitor who was banned from the clan (by herself). This disqualified her from taking over the position as Tsahik after Mo'at.

This was the heart of what I was going to add; I was thinking along the same lines.

To elaborate, it is worth bearing in mind that Jake mating with Neytiri essentially put Tsu'Tey on the outside of clan leadership, technically speaking, because they were supposed to be a mated pair for rulership and that was sunk. Whether they like that or not, it is what it is.

They barely had time to come to grips with that when Hometree was attacked. Remember, they were about to kill Jake and Grace, which would nullify Neytiri's bond with Jake and make it possible for Tsu'Tey to come back into the picture. When Hometree was attacked, Eytukan was dying and didn't have time to argue tribal politics, he just saw his daughter and passed on his authority to her, leaving Mo'at, Neyteri, and Tsu'Tey to sort things out among themselves. I saw it as, "you may have made some serious judgement errors, sweetie, but you're still my daughter and I still give you my blessing before I die".

I don't recall if he knew that his wife, Mo'at, had already cut Jake loose. The gunships were unleashing hell by that point... eh, I don't think he cared one way or the other. I think he just wanted his daughter to know he still loved and trusted her despite the revelations of the past half-hour, and he wasn't going to go to Eywa with bitter thoughts left between them.

[Swizaw Nguway]

That is a very good point. I didnt think about that.

[Will Txankamuse]

The Thanator tooth necklace might also be more than just a symbol and might mean 'whoever has this is clan leader', very much like a signet ring during medieval times.

So Neytiri took the thanator tooth necklace and carried it away from hometree until she could find Tsu'tey, at which point she gave it to him and he became Olo'eyktan, but during that short period she was technically Ole'eyktan (or, if she didn't wear it, the clan was leaderless?).  Tsu'tey continued to wear the necklace until he passed it to Jake in the scene that was removed from the theatrical release (hopefully in the Extended Edition) where, queueless, he asks Jake to kill him and take the leadership.

I had forgotten about the line from the script:

Mo'at: Neytiri! If you choose this path, you can never be Tsahik. Your life will be wasted.

perhaps JC removed it for a reason i.e. because technically this wasn't true.  We'll never know.

I love these hypothetical discussions, but as other posters have said, it's important to try and stick to canonical sources (e.g. the script, the film, pandorapedia) - the avatar wiki quoted above is not canonical.

Will

[Panzerfaust]

Anyone else notice that the word for clan leader appears masculine? Olo'eyktan - clan leader, just like Tsmukan - brother
Wether or not this implies that the clan leader is by tradition male is debatable, but i thought it was worth noting.

It also seems more likely to me that temporary clan-leadership would have fallen to Mo'at as she assuredly has more experience, though i admit Neytiri is a believeable candidate as well. I would note that when Neytiri looks back sadly at the fallen hometree as the clan is fleeing, i think she was following behind Mo'at, not leading the way.

[Zefanaya]

Neytiri was tasked with protecting the clan she was omaticayaru, she was not called "Olo'eyktan", I believe she was chosen to lead in place of Tsu'te who later takes his place as Olo'eyktan for two reasons, one Eytukan was dieing and Neytiri was their first and two Neytiri has been fighting and hunting while Mo'at has not done so for some time (speculation I have no idea if Tsa'hik continues to be taronyu, assuming not, I also have no idea how old Mo'at or Neytiri are). As for the not leading the path part I assume Mo'at and Neytiri told the clan where to go and decided to take one last look at the destroyed kelkutrel.

Eywa ngahu

[TorukMakto!]

About the age,
You have this thread http://forum.learnnavi.org/the-movie/neytiri-old/15/
I don't know about Mo'at thou.

[Tsu'roen]

The Script (page 46) says Mo'at is "in her 50's"

I doubt Eytukan was any more suited to fight than Mo'at. Both were rather high command than frontline leaders.

Also I can not see that there was ever a need for Neytiri to take over leadership after the destruction of Hometree. What would have been the point? What could she have done Mo'at couldn't do? The fight was over and the clan on retreat to the Tree of Souls. Mo'at was all the times with Neytiri and the survivors and to them.
At the same time Tsu'tey was leading the warriors (on their Ikran) - de facto he was already filling the leader position.
So there was really no time where they were without a spiritual or military leader.

As for the Ceremonial Bow, it "... is primarily ... for ceremony by clan elders, but ... functions perfectly in hunt or battle. ... usually handed down from generation to generation ..." (ASG p.45) - so it isn't a distinct sign of clan leadership.

[Zefanaya]

The Script (page 46) says Mo'at is "in her 50's"

I doubt Eytukan was any more suited to fight than Mo'at. Both were rather high command than frontline leaders.

Also I can not see that there was ever a need for Neytiri to take over leadership after the destruction of Hometree. What would have been the point? What could she have done Mo'at couldn't do? The fight was over and the clan on retreat to the Tree of Souls. Mo'at was all the times with Neytiri and the survivors and to them.
At the same time Tsu'tey was leading the warriors (on their Ikran) - de facto he was already filling the leader position.
So there was really no time where they were without a spiritual or military leader.

As for the Ceremonial Bow, it "... is primarily ... for ceremony by clan elders, but ... functions perfectly in hunt or battle. ... usually handed down from generation to generation ..." (ASG p.45) - so it isn't a distinct sign of clan leadership.

agreed, but also after something bad has happened putting some one the people like or look up to in a high place (not hight related) can help keep the people some what calm and motivated seeing your home destroyed and your friends or family members killed would make me want to just fall down a weep for hours as it is seeing that part of the movie made me cry. But Tsu'te was in line for the position if Olo'eyktan and Neytiri Tsahik so they both just did what was expected of them.

Eywa ngahu

[Tsu'roen]

agreed, but also after something bad has happened putting some one the people like or look up to in a high place (not hight related) can help keep the people some what calm and motivated seeing your home destroyed and your friends or family members killed would make me want to just fall down a weep for hours as it is seeing that part of the movie made me cry.
...

That would actually make the strongest argument for Mo'at's leadership: she is well established as Tsahik and the Omatikaya trust her. Also as the Tsahik she is the spiritual leader, the one who interprets the will of Eywa. So at that point all the people would be looking for her guidance (like many went to the churches after 911).
Neytiri is still very young and many years away from being ready for the position. I doubt she would be the one the people look up to in this situation.
And finally you don't change leaders in a time of crisis if you already have a capable one.