Something bothering me

'Itan Atxur · February 05, 2010, 08:18:45 PM

Oh well. Still an excellent movie and a dramatic scene.

AuLekye'ung · February 05, 2010, 09:17:49 PM

Agreed. Shame they killed off so many characters though. Glad they didn't kill Norm.

'Itan Atxur · February 05, 2010, 09:23:36 PM

I could see Tsu'tey living. It would be a stretch but they did say at the beginning that Na'vi are supposed to be hard to kill. So yeah, maybe they did shoot Tsu'tey but their might be a chance that the damage was only skin deep and that he "leaf" fell once he made it to the jungle. I'd be willing to accept this just to have Tsu'tey back. He's such a cool character.

AuLekye'ung · February 05, 2010, 09:31:08 PM

He got shot up pretty good. But they never found his body, so that does raise his chances.

'Itan Atxur · February 05, 2010, 09:34:03 PM

If it were me writing the script, he stays dead. But I wouldn't mind either way.

AuLekye'ung · February 05, 2010, 09:48:31 PM

They left it open.

Txontaw · February 05, 2010, 09:56:14 PM

Well, it goes either way. Either Tsu'tey lives and Quaritch stays dead, or Tsu'tey dies and Quaritch stays dead. IMO, Quaritch re-appearing would be too big of a stretch, and a lame way to make a villian come back. Besides, I don't want Avatar 2 to be a military action movie again. I think it would be nice to have a sequel in almost a different genre. It would still be action, but it would be based more around the Na'vi and their life, not on the war between two species.

/rant

'Itan Atxur · February 05, 2010, 10:08:27 PM

Yeah, Trudy, Quaritch, and Grace can't come back or the movie loses a ton of crediblity.

Tsa'räni · February 05, 2010, 10:12:53 PM

Quote from: Keye'unga Au on February 05, 2010, 07:27:41 PM
Why DID Tsu'tey jump into the craft like that? Simply to take out the gunners? And he couldn't have crashed his ikran in there just to do some extra damage?

They don't seem to do anything that puts their ikran in needless danger. Riding them into battle is one thing, but crashing them headlong into a bunch of gunners is another, especially when the creature could easily be injured just in the impact. I don't think it would have been in keeping with how the movie presents the Na'vi and their connection to the ikran.

What it would actually remind me of is the end of Transformers. They spend the entire movie building up the Transformers to be more than just dumb, lumbering robots. Sam has serious issues with seeing them get hurt, etc. And then at the end, he's stretched out on top of Bumblebee with Fox's character looking like they're about to start stripping. Ok... Way to just contradict a key concept you've worked for an entire movie to develop.

Same thing with the Na'vi and their ikran.

'Itan Atxur · February 05, 2010, 10:17:28 PM

^^^ This.

Tsu'roen · February 07, 2010, 02:06:19 PM

There is a deleted scene that shows Tsu'tey's death in detail. JC cut it because he felt it would disturb the flow of the finally. If you want to know more read the script.
What I couldn't understand was why Tsu'tey didn't grab one of the machine guns to take out the guys on the shuttle ramp

And Trudy's death in the script wasn't as senseless as in the movie. There she took out the dragon by ramming it after Jake fell off (no rocket thrown into the rotor).

The horse attack as it was shown in the movie was just stupid and pointless (kind of like the bayonet attacks in Gallipoli). It would have made sense if they would have just pretended to attack and then fall back to draw the human forces into an ambush where the archers would have the advantage.

Kaltxì Palulukan! · February 07, 2010, 02:23:18 PM

"Ditto!"

Spoiler

Yeah, I wonder if anything will change in the Director's Cut version of the battle. That horse charge still upsets me.

ShadowedSin · February 07, 2010, 02:39:55 PM

Quote from: Keye'unga Au on February 05, 2010, 08:17:47 PM
Agreed. He shouldn't have switched from simply bludgeoning them. For someone who should have been a mighty warrior, he made a lot of basic tactical mistakes.

This is where I have to really intervene. The Na'vi from I've seen have NO history of prolonged large scale warfare. In fact the tree fighting describe by Palu is more accurate to the raiding style combat they most likely fight with. TH ereason why Tsu'tey died is as we've discussed in the Martial Arts thread in the culture foru, they Na'vi really don't have any form of formal martial arts. Much of their tactics and fighting seems to be based on their hunting skills and general small scale raiding.

The Na'vi are not a battle hardened people. They aren't the Sioux who fought the white man for decades before little bighorn. They're disorganized and have one singular leader holding them together (Jake). It's like the Vercenii fighting the romans. If the Celts had not had people like Boudicca or Vercengatorix then they would NOT have even remotely beaten the organize combat system of the Roman Legions.

So advanced tacts are not in the mind of the Na'vi a people who lack really any experienced in large scale warfare. Clan feuds really don't count in such circumstances. And yes Tsu'Tey is dead, the 07 script has his queue getting cut off.

Tsu'roen · February 07, 2010, 02:48:49 PM

Well the Na'vi did not have the battle experience but Jake had. And the script says that he gave them instructions how to take out the gunships:

QuoteTIME CUT -- Jake, Neytiri a group of banshee riders squat
around an animal skin on which he has drawn the silhouette of
a Scorpion gunship -- like a hunt totem.
JAKE
(Na'vi/subtitled)
Strike here and here.
Jake splats red dye at the centers of the circles symbolizing
the rotors. The Na'vi absorb the lesson eagerly, like kids.

So why didn't he give them a better strategy for the ground attack?

Also I would like what the carnage was on the Na'vi side. It looked like they lost a heck of a lot warriors. Many of the Ikran riders may have fallen into the jungle like Jake and survived. Though they surely lost many ikran.
But the ground losses must be devastating

BTW JC said the version in the cinemas is the Directors Cut. The extended version will be the Fan Cut!

magne · February 10, 2010, 01:56:19 PM

Quote from: Tsu'roen on February 07, 2010, 02:48:49 PM
Well the Na'vi did not have the battle experience but Jake had. And the script says that he gave them instructions how to take out the gunships:
QuoteTIME CUT -- Jake, Neytiri a group of banshee riders squat
around an animal skin on which he has drawn the silhouette of
a Scorpion gunship -- like a hunt totem.
JAKE
(Na'vi/subtitled)
Strike here and here.
Jake splats red dye at the centers of the circles symbolizing
the rotors. The Na'vi absorb the lesson eagerly, like kids.

So why didn't he give them a better strategy for the ground attack?

Also I would like what the carnage was on the Na'vi side. It looked like they lost a heck of a lot warriors. Many of the Ikran riders may have fallen into the jungle like Jake and survived. Though they surely lost many ikran.
But the ground losses must be devastating

BTW JC said the version in the cinemas is the Directors Cut. The extended version will be the Fan Cut!

Probably because he had limited control, he wanted to direct the air assault who was more critical. For the shooting first, I guess they choose a place with plenty of ground vegetation to charge, this would keep them hidden longer.
But yes they did many mistakes, an ambush or perhaps just slow the enemy down to the air battle was won would have been better.
I believe most of the ground attack was from the horse clans and most of the Omaticaya took part in the air assault so the casualties would be less devastating, the result might be less devastating than it looks for the air assault as many ikran probably got wounded and had to land. But it was a victory you could not afford more of.

Someone said that the hammerheads would get problems with the amp suits 30mm guns that are able to take out tanks. My suggestion was that they used explosive grenades in this batle not armor piercing ammo. The grenades would be more effective against the Na'vi but much less effective against the hammerheads, but they was fighting Na'vi anyway and had no use for armor piercing.

AuLekye'ung · February 10, 2010, 02:20:55 PM

Can we make the assumption that the hammerheads have the same carbon fiber skeletal structure that the Na'vi had? If we do, then armor piercing bullets, 30mm or not, would have felt like bee stings on their crests.

In the script it does mention that the Na'vi put archers in the trees with the ground assault, but another major point I have:

Why didn't they focus fire on the Amp suits? Those were the biggest ground threat, and you saw that the arrows can pierce the cockpits.

magne · February 12, 2010, 10:54:44 AM

Quote from: Keye'unga Au on February 10, 2010, 02:20:55 PM
Can we make the assumption that the hammerheads have the same carbon fiber skeletal structure that the Na'vi had? If we do, then armor piercing bullets, 30mm or not, would have felt like bee stings on their crests.

In the script it does mention that the Na'vi put archers in the trees with the ground assault, but another major point I have:

Why didn't they focus fire on the Amp suits? Those were the biggest ground threat, and you saw that the arrows can pierce the cockpits.

Not sure how effective carbon fibre is as armor, yes the hammer would absorb it but it's not so large it shield the body. Simplest explanation is that they used explosive grenades for better effect against Na'vi.

Yes they was the largest danger, believe you needed a good shot to penetrate the cockpit, so it would probably be better to wait attacking them until you was close, they might also have other sensitive parts who is hard to hit at a distance.

AuLekye'ung · February 12, 2010, 03:20:03 PM

Carbon fiber skeletons would mean they are very strong and hard to break.

And, along with that, their hides are likely impervious to all but the highest caliber rounds as well; a hippopotamus' hide is bullet-proof, and you have to take into account the hammerhead's are about three times as large as a hippo. In short: nothing those ground troops had should have been able to do any real damage to them.

And I was talking more about the Na'vi who ambushed them from the trees. They should have been able to get off a good volley on the amp suits. But, regardless, they made some huge tactical errors on the ground, but it was likely due to inexperience on their part, as well as Cameron's desire to have a cowboys vs. Indians charge.

QuoteNot sure how effective carbon fibre is as armor, yes the hammer would absorb it but it's not so large it shield the body. Simplest explanation is that they used explosive grenades for better effect against Na'vi.

The first time I saw explosive weapons on the ground was when they did the airstrike on them. But I could be wrong.

dky.tehkingd.u · February 12, 2010, 03:49:43 PM

Quote from: Keye'unga Au on February 10, 2010, 02:20:55 PM
Why didn't they focus fire on the Amp suits? Those were the biggest ground threat, and you saw that the arrows can pierce the cockpits.

They were really the biggest threat only because they're large and armored, and not as much because of the big guns. Since the RDA foot soldiers were equally dangerous (one or two shots from both the AMP's GAU-90 and a standard RDA firearm could easily take a Na'vi out of action), yet more vulnerable, it makes sense to take them out first since once they're gone, there would be fewer things trying to shoot the Na'vi and they would have an easier time then taking down the AMP suits... assuming that they succeeded, which they didn't.

The arrows couldn't pierce the cockpits, by the way. In order to penetrate the cockpit windows, the Ikran riders had to immediately fire their arrows at the correct angle (as perpendicular as possible) while coming in on a very steep vertical dive in order to increase the arrow's velocity. I doubt that Pa'li have the same speed as a diving Ikran.

AuLekye'ung · February 12, 2010, 05:46:11 PM

You take out the amp suits because:

A) They had the thermal and motion scanners.

B) They had the biggest guns.

C) Losing their big weapons would have demoralized the soldiers at least a little bit.

D) The ground commanders were in the amp suits.

Most of those perhaps would not be known by the Na'vi, but all the same it made sense to prioritize the larger targets

And, what example do we have that the arrows couldn't penetrate the cockpits? The only times I remember they couldn't pierce them was when they were firing up, with no momentum, at the likely slightly thicker cockpit of the Dragon and other aircraft.

I mean, how tough can the cockpits actually be? Meter long arrows being fired from composite bows designed for creatures considerably more powerful than humans should be able to pierce any glass or plastic cockpit.