Which of the deleted scenes "really happened" anyway?

[Mithcoriel]

So, most of us here have read the script and know that many, many scenes were cut from the movie. (Don't read on now, unless you want it spoilered.)


What I'm wondering is: did those scenes never happen in the Avatar universe at all, or did they happen but were simply not shown to the audience?

I think the first answer that comes to mind is the former. And that's one of the reasons why I'm so sad some of the stuff was cut out. Take Tsu'tey's death, for example. I'm sad they cut it out, not just cause that means us fans didn't get to see that scene in the cinema and have to wait till it comes out on DVD, but also cause that means it's not canon now. It never happened. If Jake, in the sequel, remembers Tsu'tey's death, I'm quite certain he'll remember Tsu'tey falling into the forest. He won't rememeber mercy-killing Tsu'tey after he lost his queue etc. Tsu'tey never did say those touching lines.

So that would be a scene that "didn't happen". But there are others that must have happened.
The Uniltaron, or Dreamhunt, may have been removed from the movie. But the Activist Survival Guide still says that every young Na'vi must go through the dream hunt to earn his place in the clan. So, since Jake was accepted as a clan member, he must have done that dream hunt, even if we didn't see it.

Then there's parts where there's no reason to assume it never happened. Like the whole thing that took place on earth before Jake left for Pandora. Him getting into the bar fight and all that.
And Neytiri's sister. I think it's quite likely that Jake will learn about that sister in the sequel. But, the scenes in the script where Grace tells Jake about her obviously never happened.

What do you think?

[Tsa'räni]

I think anything in the extended edition of the film will be canon.  I wouldn't be surprised to see deleted scenes left over that are not included in the extended version, and those I would not consider canon unless otherwise stated by Cameron.  The book will almost certainly clear up a lot of this, too.

[Tsu'roen]

Mithcoriel, I'm with you on that. I actually wished they would have made the movie pretty much exactly as in the 2007 script. It had more dept and was more balanced in it's characters. The movie had too much cleanup towards a clear black and white picture. Also I liked the original battle scene better where Trudy's death had a meaning and Jake wasn't the "do it all alone" hero.

But many things that were cut still hapened but just haven't been told in detail in the movie.

There is the scene where Jake steals the images of the Tree Of Souls from Grace's computer and gives them to Quaritch. We do not see that in the movie but we know that it must have happened since Quaritch mentioned it.

There is the Dream Hunt where we only see the very beginning and the very end - but all the inbetween must still have happened - at least it is described in the ASG to some extent.

There is the school incident that isn't mentioned in detail in the movie but must have happened to explain the rift between the humans and the Na'vi. Also you still see the pictures in the movie (fridge door @ site 26).

But then there has also been some image cleanup to let the Na'vi appear spotless:
The scene after the destruction of the Tree of Voices where Wainfleet tells Quaritch and Selfridge that the Omatikaya have burned down the dozers and killed the entire security detail - you still see the reaction of Selfridge where he gives Quaritch the OK to attack Hometree but the context is lost.

The scene where Quaritch stakes a coup against Selfridge and orders the attack on the Tree of Souls. This would have put Selfridge into a different light.

Other missing scenes:
The big hunt and the feast afterwards

The raid Max and the other Avatar driveres made on Hell's Gate tower.

Many of the conversations between Grace and Jake

The lovestory between Norm and Trudy.

...

Most of these scenes would have made the movie better (at least for the mature audience)

[Mithcoriel]

The raid Max and the other Avatar driveres made on Hell's Gate tower.

Oh yeah, I forgot about that one. And that's also one of the scenes that must have happened, cause we see the other avatars teamed up with Jake in the end as they march the humans back onto their ship.
(I wanna see that scene. It sounds awesome, how Max bust a hole into the place and then all the avatars come in.)

[Coyote]

A lot depends on if scenes were cut merely for time, or if they were cut because Cameron felt it didn't accurately reflect his vision for the story as much as he thought it would when reading it in the script. Or in some cases, like with the death of Tsu'Tey, he felt it interrupted the pace of the story-- but it didn't disturb the events so there's no reason it didn't happen "offstage".

If things were cut for "time" or "flow/pace", and they don't contradict anything else in the move (including characterization), then they can probably still be regarded as "canon".

OTOH, if a scene would seriously disturb the events presented in the movie, or create a serious change in a character that is not reflected anywhere else, then it is "non-canon".

So, the Tsaheylu sex scene will probably be regarded as "canon", but an early draft of the script or a deleted scene showing Norm being killed in the first 20 minutes would not be canon, no matter how well-done it was, because Norm goes on to play a role all the way up to the end.

[Tsu'roen]

The raid Max and the other Avatar driveres made on Hell's Gate tower.

Oh yeah, I forgot about that one. And that's also one of the scenes that must have happened, cause we see the other avatars teamed up with Jake in the end as they march the humans back onto their ship.
(I wanna see that scene. It sounds awesome, how Max bust a hole into the place and then all the avatars come in.)

There is actually proof that this scene was filmed: http://forum.learnnavi.org/making-of/camera-b-rolls-lots-of-taken-out-scenes-shown/

Other reasons for taking out scenes:
They stood in the way of the PG13 rating: dream hunt (drugs), mating scene (sex) ... Important to make money these days as the kids have the most disposable income.

Also I wouldn't believe everything that get said or written, like "there was no pressure from the studio" - yeah right! That sounds so much like what studios do in the middle of a depression to a director that hasn't had a huge hit in over 10 years but with Dark Angel a prematurely axed TV show. They gave JC a huge lot of money and that means in general they want to have some final say in it.

Another thing I have heard is that there is a running time (=length of assembled film strip) limit for IMAX projectors. So far I couldn't find any sources to verify this. But if that's true it may also account for many cuts.

[Txontaw]

Another thing I have heard is that there is a running time (=length of assembled film strip) limit for IMAX projectors. So far I couldn't find any sources to verify this. But if that's true it may also account for many cuts.

That may make sense for film-strip IMAX projectors, but most of the projectors are digital now, so that shouldn't be a problem.

[Tsu'roen]

Another thing I have heard is that there is a running time (=length of assembled film strip) limit for IMAX projectors. So far I couldn't find any sources to verify this. But if that's true it may also account for many cuts.

That may make sense for film-strip IMAX projectors, but most of the projectors are digital now, so that shouldn't be a problem.

Are they? I hardly doubt that as there are quiet a few quality restrictions:

from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IMAX#IMAX_Digital_Theatre_System
IMAX Digital Theatre System
A digital version of IMAX started rolling out in 2008. The new system is a projection standard only. Digital IMAX systems can show either 2D or 3D content in DCI or IMAX digital format (which in itself is a superset of DCI). The digital system alleviates the need for film reels and facilitates inexpensive distribution of IMAX features.

Despite those advantages, one big disadvantage is the resolution of the picture is much lower than the resolution of the normal IMAX film, which is estimated to be about 12000 × 8700 theoretical pixels or 6120 × 4500 actually discernible pixels[9]. The screens used by IMAX multiplex locations range in size from 47' x 24' to 74' x 46' and those in classic IMAX locations range from 51' x 37' to 117' x 96', typically New South China Mall. [10] The digital installations have drawn some confusion based on poor consumer differentiation to the traditional 15/70 IMAX.[11]

IMAX digital currently uses two 2K-resolution Christie projectors with Texas Instruments Digital Light Processing technology alongside parts of IMAX's proprietary technologies. The two 2K images are projected over each other, producing an image that is potentially of a slightly higher resolution than common 2K digital cinema. Originally, IMAX had been considering using two Sony 4K projectors.[12] Some reviewers note that this approach may not produce image quality higher than using one 4K projector, which are available for some non-IMAX theaters,[11] including AMC's own. [13]

Deals have already been signed with Hollywood studios for IMAX 3D features, such as Shrek Forever After 3D.[14] IMAX recently signed a deal with AMC Theatres to start utilizing IMAX digital beginning July 2008 in the US. In December 2008 two digital screens were opened inside Odeon Cinemas in the UK[15] and three inside Hoyts Cinemas in Australia with a fourth to follow later in 2009[16].

Digital backlash
IMAX Corporation's decision not to designate the new digital installations in any manner has led to a backlash by some viewers who are disappointed to have paid a premium to view an IMAX presentation only to find it being shown with much lower resolution on a screen of relatively ordinary size.[17] Some reviewers have pointed out that the visual artifacts due to low resolution are detrimental to the picture quality, especially for viewers seated closer to the screen.[11] The company CEO has stated that in digital IMAX installations the first few rows of seats are removed, allowing the screen to be closer to moviegoers, which makes the screen appear larger than it would in a standard theater setting.[18]

[Technowraith]

Another thing I have heard is that there is a running time (=length of assembled film strip) limit for IMAX projectors. So far I couldn't find any sources to verify this. But if that's true it may also account for many cuts.

That may make sense for film-strip IMAX projectors, but most of the projectors are digital now, so that shouldn't be a problem.

If we're talking about deleted scenes, there's a few reasons:

-Timing: The movie gets too long, therefore scenes need to be cut.
-Continuity: Some scenes may break up the continuity of the film. What looked like a good point on paper and script may turn out to be unworkable in real life.
-Pacing: Especially pivotal scenes (like the end where Neytiri is with Jake holding him) and Tsu'teys cut death scene are two scenes that would have broken up the emotional pacing of the movie if they were both included. Cameron makes a comment to this in some of his interviews regarding the deletion of certain scenes.
-Cost of production: Some scenes may become too elaborate and expensive to do. Everything is about money in the end when it comes to making movies.
-Other reasons the Director feels the need for deleting a particular scene.

Most movies are held to a 2.5 duration because that appears to be the threshold where you start losing interest. Lord of the rings was a trial for me personally at first. a 3 hour movie is pushing it for me, both in terms of comfort and attention span. To an extent, the capacity of the media plays a major role as well. After all, you can only put so much film into a reel/platter. As the movie industry transitions to digital media, remember that high capacity digital media does get full eventually. An average DVD at normal resolution is like a 20GB dataset of files. Higher resolutions only increases that figure. Only through compressing the file and decoding it at the DVD-player level can we enjoy the film stored within that 20GB dataset. With high-resolution IMAX and Real 3D media, you're talking resolutions that are almost 3 or 4 times what a normal DVD is. With that, you can assume at least a 4 or 5 fold increase in the data file size required to store the film digitally. So the studio producing the film must be mindful (especially in the future transition to digital media) to the duration of the film at least to some extent.

[Tsu'roen]

even 5 fold doesn't cut it:

1920 x 1080 = 2073600 pixel (HD, Blu-Ray Disk)
6120 x 4500 = 27540000 pixel (13x more)
12000 x 8700 = 104400000 pixel (50x more)

The memory requirement increases accordingly

[Technowraith]

even 5 fold doesn't cut it:

1920 x 1080 = 2073600 pixel
6120 x 4500 = 27540000 pixel (13x more)
12000 x 8700 = 104400000 pixel (50x more)

The memory requirement increases accordingly

Yeah... i don't know what the resolutions are, so that's good to know. ^.^

[Tsu'roen]

Yes, it goes up real fast.