Whoa - MAJOR mistake nobody is noticing.

Started by Zhowìntll, January 27, 2010, 12:45:00 AM

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Tsa'räni

Ah, I found something else.  Page 5 of the ASG states...

"Much of the plant life often contains chemical compounds that render it unfit for human consumption."

Anyway, still interested if anyone knows parts that mention what, if anything, could be eaten by humans.

omängum fra'uti

Different creatures require different amino acids.  And that's certainly true of Na'vi and human - the amino bath they grew the Na'vi in would dissolve a human.  (Forget the source, think it was one of the Avatar wikis.)

That said, page 100 of ASG describes Teylu (Insect larva) as a food source for humans.
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Technowraith

Quote from: Txontaw on February 05, 2010, 02:40:57 PM
Quote from: pbhead on February 05, 2010, 02:15:51 PM
Quote from: Technowraith on February 03, 2010, 07:52:43 PM
Assuming the RDA has been on Pandora for at least 5 years.


at a very, very, very minimum, 35 years. The current line of isv's require unobtanium to construct... so... it would have taken a very very minimum of 7 years (and theres a good chance that that first ship was slower) for that first shipment of unobtanium to reach earth... and then 8 years for each of the ISV's built before the venture star, and then 20 years for the ammount of time the Venture star has been operational. (from earth, to pandora, back to earth, and currently in orbit around pandora)

They haven't been on Pandora that long.

It's a maximum of 25 years, because thats ~ when they first discovered the life on there.

I think a more accurate figure is like 10-15 years. Remember, it takes 5 years to get there to start with.
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Txontaw

#84
Quote from: Technowraith on February 09, 2010, 03:47:58 PM
Quote from: Txontaw on February 05, 2010, 02:40:57 PM
Quote from: pbhead on February 05, 2010, 02:15:51 PM
Quote from: Technowraith on February 03, 2010, 07:52:43 PM
Assuming the RDA has been on Pandora for at least 5 years.


at a very, very, very minimum, 35 years. The current line of isv's require unobtanium to construct... so... it would have taken a very very minimum of 7 years (and theres a good chance that that first ship was slower) for that first shipment of unobtanium to reach earth... and then 8 years for each of the ISV's built before the venture star, and then 20 years for the ammount of time the Venture star has been operational. (from earth, to pandora, back to earth, and currently in orbit around pandora)

They haven't been on Pandora that long.

It's a maximum of 25 years, because thats ~ when they first discovered the life on there.

I think a more accurate figure is like 10-15 years. Remember, it takes 5 years to get there to start with.

Yeah, I said maximum.

But I think it would actually be around 18 years at most, because it only takes two years to send info back to Earth, from Pandora, or vice versa. The five year rule only applies to the ships.
"You're not in Kansas anymore. You're on Pandora, Ladies and Gentlemen." - Colonel Quaritch


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Two years for info to transfer between Earth and Pandora? Wow. That seems long given the seemingly advanced communication technology available.
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omängum fra'uti

The ASG does talk about methods for superluminal communication, but it also talks about how it is very slow rate (Measured in bits per minute) and it seems like it would be impractical.
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Quote from: omängum fra'uti on February 09, 2010, 07:26:32 PM
The ASG does talk about methods for superluminal communication, but it also talks about how it is very slow rate (Measured in bits per minute) and it seems like it would be impractical.

The superluminal transmitter isn't very efficient, but it is a way of communicating with earth. The rate is three bits per hour. So to send the text contained in this post, it would require almost 2 days.
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Tsa'räni

Quote from: Technowraith on February 09, 2010, 07:37:46 PM
Quote from: omängum fra'uti on February 09, 2010, 07:26:32 PM
The ASG does talk about methods for superluminal communication, but it also talks about how it is very slow rate (Measured in bits per minute) and it seems like it would be impractical.

The superluminal transmitter isn't very efficient, but it is a way of communicating with earth. The rate is three bits per hour. So to send the text contained in this post, it would require almost 2 days.

Actually, I believe if it's really bits, it would take far longer.  A letter should be represented as a byte (8 bits).  So, assuming that's correct, you couldn't even send a single letter in one hour.  It would take almost 3 hours per letter.

I have a feeling they actually meant 3 bytes per hour.  Just a technicality, but an important one.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong about all that.

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Even if it is just a few bits per hour it still a lot faster than 2 years.
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Technowraith

Quote from: Tsa'räni on February 09, 2010, 07:54:44 PM
Quote from: Technowraith on February 09, 2010, 07:37:46 PM
Quote from: omängum fra'uti on February 09, 2010, 07:26:32 PM
The ASG does talk about methods for superluminal communication, but it also talks about how it is very slow rate (Measured in bits per minute) and it seems like it would be impractical.

The superluminal transmitter isn't very efficient, but it is a way of communicating with earth. The rate is three bits per hour. So to send the text contained in this post, it would require almost 2 days.

Actually, I believe if it's really bits, it would take far longer.  A letter should be represented as a byte (8 bits).  So, assuming that's correct, you couldn't even send a single letter in one hour.  It would take almost 3 hours per letter.

I have a feeling they actually meant 3 bytes per hour.  Just a technicality, but an important one.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong about all that.

The Activist Guide mentions the superluminal transmitter has a max throughput of 3 bits per hours. I had to double check myself. It's my forgetting that letters are represented in bytes, not bits. So you yeah, it would take almost a week to send the text in the referenced post.
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Tsa'räni

No doubt it's faster.  And it could easily be bits, since they're dealing a quantum state equivalent of on/off, which is all a bit is.

Edit -Yeah, I know what it says.  I'm just questioning whether they actually meant bytes.  Since the ASG says bits, bits is what you have to go with.

Technowraith

Quote from: Tsa'räni on February 09, 2010, 08:15:11 PM
No doubt it's faster.  And it could easily be bits, since they're dealing a quantum state equivalent of on/off, which is all a bit is.

Edit -Yeah, I know what it says.  I'm just questioning whether they actually meant bytes.  Since the ASG says bits, bits is what you have to go with.

Thing is, i've been questioning much like you have. I kniow 3 bits per hour is beyond dead-snail rate. And to be able to communicate, you need to be able to send reasonable amounts of data back and forth relatively quickly. And at some times you need a large throughput. I wander if they meant to say bytes, because that would be more reasonable. But it does say bits. It's something that may be covered later, or maybe if there's a way to contact Cameron and find out from him directly what they meant.
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kintìomum

I don't remember where exactly it was mentioned but with that low ratio it would be perfectly reasonable to have a set of -let's say- 32 standard messages: 1=All is right 2=Trip succesfull 3=New possible mining location found ... and so on.
32 states can be represented with just 6 bits so that would take a mere 2 hours. Since the transmission method is said to be equipped with high fail safes and error corrections one could send the main meaning of the message in relatively short time and add additional info in a way longer -meaning more time consuming, you'd definitely try to use as few words as possible!- sequence.
It would still require much time but it's faster than the two alternatives: laser message to Earth (4.37 years) or the Pony Express using an ISV (5 years, 9 months, 22 days)...

The main question is what is so important that they need to send it with FTL-communication? Production numbers? Fairly obvious if the ISV arrives and got less than 350 tons of Unobtanium on board. A request for special personnel (since the simple folks are most likely a use-n-lose-product that's just loaded and shipped on schedule) or spare parts neither a lithograpic factory on board the ISV nor the robotic plant at Hell's Gate can produce would be my best guess since it's gotta be a real pain in the ass when you need a programmer to get rid of this pesky little pop-up "Warning! Flying creature entered sector Tango-4!" that keeps bogging your flight controller and have to wait for a whole laser-send-and-wait-for-next-ship turn...

New idea: Would't it be possible to send a message to an outbound ISV and use that as a relay station? Or... hmm, no. They travel slower than light so it would just ensure that the message is more often received, corrected and amplified...
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Txontaw

Quote from: kintìomum on February 11, 2010, 02:51:59 PM
I don't remember where exactly it was mentioned but with that low ratio it would be perfectly reasonable to have a set of -let's say- 32 standard messages: 1=All is right 2=Trip succesfull 3=New possible mining location found ... and so on.
32 states can be represented with just 6 bits so that would take a mere 2 hours. Since the transmission method is said to be equipped with high fail safes and error corrections one could send the main meaning of the message in relatively short time and add additional info in a way longer -meaning more time consuming, you'd definitely try to use as few words as possible!- sequence.
It would still require much time but it's faster than the two alternatives: laser message to Earth (4.37 years) or the Pony Express using an ISV (5 years, 9 months, 22 days)...

The main question is what is so important that they need to send it with FTL-communication? Production numbers? Fairly obvious if the ISV arrives and got less than 350 tons of Unobtanium on board. A request for special personnel (since the simple folks are most likely a use-n-lose-product that's just loaded and shipped on schedule) or spare parts neither a lithograpic factory on board the ISV nor the robotic plant at Hell's Gate can produce would be my best guess since it's gotta be a real pain in the ass when you need a programmer to get rid of this pesky little pop-up "Warning! Flying creature entered sector Tango-4!" that keeps bogging your flight controller and have to wait for a whole laser-send-and-wait-for-next-ship turn...

New idea: Would't it be possible to send a message to an outbound ISV and use that as a relay station? Or... hmm, no. They travel slower than light so it would just ensure that the message is more often received, corrected and amplified...

So it would be like light speed telegraphs!
"You're not in Kansas anymore. You're on Pandora, Ladies and Gentlemen." - Colonel Quaritch


MaTe

This is not a mistake, but a nice touch that's missing.

Grace says "Oh, not again" when she get's shot. It would be a nice twist if her avatar had a scar hinting at the events at school. though it would be hard to avoid the discussion of that event, and it was cut...
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Tsu'roen

For the superluminal transmitter they for sure have a compression protocol that reduces the message volume to the bare minimum. For sure they have a list with standard messages about everything foreseeable that just require sending a short numerical sequence.
Also keep in mind that these transmitters are no radios that can be mixed and matched to connect to any other.
One superluminal transmitter and receiver form a pair that can not be re-matched to another unit due to the physics behind them (twin particles, created in the same event). So every side needs sender AND a receiver that each have to have their matching counterpart on the other end.

A few points from earlier in this thread:

1. Norm leaving the shack after his Avatar was shot/killed:
 a) Norm had to be out of the shack for the final scene.
 b) that is one of the seeds for the sequel.

2. Missiles able to hit Trudy's Samson:
A normal missile shouldn't work at all in the flux as it would screw up the electronics badly. But that would also apply to all the aircraft if they were not specifically shielded for that environment.
But there are actually wire guided missiles (Milan, BGM-71 TOW, ...). At that stage the wire is probably fiberglass and therefore safe from electromagnetic interferences and the electronics are heavily shielded. I could see the RDA using those in an electromagnetically active environment like Pandora.

3. The driver in the original draft (Scriptum) who became mentally instable committed actually Avatar suicide (let himself eat by a Manticore/Thanator) after his Na'vi girlfriend was killed by Quaritch. His trauma was from being in link up to the very end + the loss of his love. He would later lead the uprising of the Avatar drivers against Selfridge. Max's role is to some degree based on this character.

4. Quaritch not hitting the right link:
I don't think he was very clear in his mind anymore at that point - he kind of lost it after the shuttle was destroyed and when the Dragon came down. You see that in his expression after he landed with his AMP suit - he is just consumed by rage with all logic gone.  So he just started smashing the first he could reach and would have continued with the others if Jake hadn't stopped him.

5. Pandoran plants, fruits and animals contain substances that make them unsuitable for human consumption (ASG). But they would have either green houses, algae farms (you can grow them in tube systems extremely efficiently - I've done that myself) or genetic modified plants that would allow them to make food for the humans on Pandora. Shipping that out all the way from earth would simply be unsustainable.

A few things I found implausible:
After escaping from Hell's Gate:
- How long would it have taken Quaritch to mobilize another Samson or Scorpion to go after them - and he knew where they were going. It is common practice to always keep an alarm team ready. And Quaritch seemed to be the guy to follow this practice. And then Trudy had to land, get the cables out, connect them to the Samson and to the container and disconnect the two containers from each other - all that has to take at least an hour in total - more than enough time for Quaritch to have a Scorpion there to blast them out of the sky.

- When they move the link container close to the flux vertex - right next to the Tree of Souls - we see Ikran riders flying in the area but none of them noticed the Samson? I mean with the heavy load it was hardly in whisper mode so even if they failed to see it they would have heard it and sent at least a few warriors to check it out. They were at high alert, right?
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Technowraith


A couple quick counter points to Tsu'roen's post above:

#4: Quaritch didn't know what link Jake was using. He didn't get an opportunity to find out because Jake jumped onto the suit before he could smash more units.

The Implausible comment:

There are some things that don't quite add up. One is how Norm got his Avatar (and ultimately the other Avatars). We know that Jake's Avatar was lying in a heap of ash by the remains of Kelutrel. Norm's avatar are most likely back at Hell's Gate. Grace's Avatar ws taken with the Omaticaya to the Tree of Souls supposedly. (This makes sense, as we see both grace and her avatar being carried to the ToS). The fly in the ointment is Norm's Avatar. Where was his? And of course, a response team of some sort should have available. The only reasoning one wasn't sent (in my opinion) is that Quaritch simply planned to kill them in the end anyway. So why bother sending out a response team? The time line for the events in reference is plausible to an extent, though. In a way, the movie seems to convey a rushed feeling when this scene is playing through. Once the lab is squared away, things tend to slow down a bit.
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Eyamsiyu

Quote from: Tsu'roen on February 15, 2010, 07:17:41 PM
A few things I found implausible:
After escaping from Hell's Gate:
- How long would it have taken Quaritch to mobilize another Samson or Scorpion to go after them - and he knew where they were going. It is common practice to always keep an alarm team ready. And Quaritch seemed to be the guy to follow this practice. And then Trudy had to land, get the cables out, connect them to the Samson and to the container and disconnect the two containers from each other - all that has to take at least an hour in total - more than enough time for Quaritch to have a Scorpion there to blast them out of the sky.

- When they move the link container close to the flux vertex - right next to the Tree of Souls - we see Ikran riders flying in the area but none of them noticed the Samson? I mean with the heavy load it was hardly in whisper mode so even if they failed to see it they would have heard it and sent at least a few warriors to check it out. They were at high alert, right?

As to what you found implausible:

I would bet that Quaritch thought they would never need a backup plan, as the only person in the cell who knew anything combat related was a cripple.

And as for them flying over the Tree of Souls (what's the Na'vi word for that again?), I think that if they had heard it, they wouldn't have cared, or rather they purposely avoided looking for it, because they realized the danger of the tawtute, and also because they just destroyed Kelutrel.  They would not want to face that again.


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Technowraith

Quote from: Autakuk'Ekong on February 15, 2010, 07:52:13 PM
Quote from: Tsu'roen on February 15, 2010, 07:17:41 PM
A few things I found implausible:
After escaping from Hell's Gate:
- How long would it have taken Quaritch to mobilize another Samson or Scorpion to go after them - and he knew where they were going. It is common practice to always keep an alarm team ready. And Quaritch seemed to be the guy to follow this practice. And then Trudy had to land, get the cables out, connect them to the Samson and to the container and disconnect the two containers from each other - all that has to take at least an hour in total - more than enough time for Quaritch to have a Scorpion there to blast them out of the sky.

- When they move the link container close to the flux vertex - right next to the Tree of Souls - we see Ikran riders flying in the area but none of them noticed the Samson? I mean with the heavy load it was hardly in whisper mode so even if they failed to see it they would have heard it and sent at least a few warriors to check it out. They were at high alert, right?

As to what you found implausible:

I would bet that Quaritch thought they would never need a backup plan, as the only person in the cell who knew anything combat related was a cripple.

And as for them flying over the Tree of Souls (what's the Na'vi word for that again?), I think that if they had heard it, they wouldn't have cared, or rather they purposely avoided looking for it, because they realized the danger of the tawtute, and also because they just destroyed Kelutrel.  They would not want to face that again.

Trudy didn't fly over the Tree of Souls, but past it. You can see the ikran riders, but they are flying toward the Tree. I'm sure the Omaticaya weren't in any condition to confront the Samson. They may have mistaken the Samson for a Scorpion as well. In any case, the landing site of the lab isn't exactly far from the Tree, either.
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