Why Avatar matters after all... [science, spirituality, etc]

Started by kharul_karyu, January 27, 2010, 11:06:07 PM

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kharul_karyu

Why Avatar matters after all... [science, spirituality, history, sequel spoilers(?)]

NOTE: I hope those of you out there can forgive, in advance, for the long-windedness of this post... the overwhelming research, the nonsense-y rambling, everything. Each additional link I found about Avatar was like gasoline on the fires in my quest for such information. The more I found, the greater my happiness for knowing about Avatar or having WATCHED Avatar to begin with... if that makes sense. I just *LOVE* all this stuff. I hope you do too.

All I can say is I felt compelled to do this, from the get-go (I will explain that, later), for some reason. Sorry(?) for being so committed and thanks to those who will understand how I feel. If I find myself to still log on in a day's worth time and this post isn't removed, if I can respond to comments, well, I guess that would mean I haven't pissed anyone off (yet) which I should only feel so lucky... given my ADHD-ish, klutzy, clumsy, foolish(?) charm. Thanks again. :)

Dear Friends:

Ever since I saw Avatar a few weeks ago, I have been searching for a novelization to address my hunger for backstories to Avatar... of course, without any luck. So, I have been hovering over Google for leading me to random sites all over the place for extra meaning into the mythos of Avatar. I have been looking a lot into "all things Avatar" for a while and it has been a dizzying and interesting learning experience. And the more I saw and learned, the more I saved what I found and looked for more.

Just the Internet is all that is available to me, but that is all that is necessary... in feeding my hunger for something, something I always knew, perhaps... perhaps something I guess we all knew something about. In hindsight, what I found has given me a lot to think about, after all (that a mere book on it's own could not do), as I am sure what I have found will give you all a lot to think about, too.

And I hope you like to think and read, because this might just be as enlightening as the movie itself, if not more so.

And for those of you who do not know, there are *FOUR* Avatar forums out there...

[I have to keep it under 20000 characters. Whoops. Sorry. See the link below for the full post.]

http://naviblue.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=858

Regards,
Kha'rul
I love to think about random stuff. I hope perhaps you do, too! :D

Doxy

Very interesting read!

I can totally understand why some people who have expressed no prior believe in a "central Deity" can come out of this movie being tugged in that direction.

Have you ever heard of the Gaia Theory?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaia_hypothesis

It's a theory that categorizes the entire Earth as a whole living organism, not just a hunk of rock with a big fat biosphere surrounding it. It is the idea that everything from the biosphere down to the core of the earth is alive, and thus connected, and able to regulate itself to adapt to us.
There's plenty of evidence to support it, like the fact that the Earth WILL indeed cleanse itself when need arises, and is a a self-repairing system.
Weak Gaia: is basically the above. Earth is a massive, adaptable organism in a sense, with channels of energy running through it.
Strong Gaia: Is also the above, but the idea of Earth as a Sentient organism that will often change it's features and surface to suit man. Also has a fair amount of evidence.


Personally, I have been brought up to believe in a great Mother of sorts, the Goddess, (Very close to Eywa! But She DOES take sides) That runs through all life and keeps the balance. The Goddess is the personification of everything that is Life; of the sun and the moon, of the earth and the skies. Although people often percieve The Goddess differently than I, which is OK, I see her as very maternal. You can go to her for strength when nobody else seems to be there for you, and she will make herself known. I also think that her energy
can be manifested into representatives that can be sought out and tapped into for specifc purposes, and have been worshipped by countless cultures as "Gods and Goddesses." (IE Hades, Athena, Cernunnos, Osiris, Horus, Bastet to name a few.)
Everybody has the potential t obe connected to Her, but Man has (For the most part) severed his bond. It can easily be repaired, but He usually chooses not to.
Because of this, I don't foresee Man to Destroy the Earth. I foresee hem to destroy Himself. The Earth will ALWAYS be there, and will always be in control. When our bombs wipe us and our buildings to rubble, the Earth will ALWAYS repair itself, cleanse itself, and reclaim its land. It may not seem like it, but Earth is still very much in control. She's a tough chick, not some weak animal we need to protect.
(This is not to say it is wrong to go green! Not at all! In fact, I endorse it entirely! Treat your Mother with respect!)

(And I really don't think Global Warming is Man-made, nor is it necessarily a bad thing. The same warming is currently occuring on Jupiter, mars, Pluto, Neptune's Moon and Venus, as recently discovered, so there's a good chance the cause is Solar.
http://www.canadafreepress.com/2007/global-warming031307.htm)



Will Txankamuse

Quote from: kharul_karyu on January 27, 2010, 11:06:07 PM
Ever since I saw Avatar a few weeks ago, I have been searching for a novelization to address my hunger for backstories to Avatar... of course, without any luck.
James Cameron has announced he's working on a Novel [source], and I would guess that the bluray/dvd will also have quite a lot of backstory or at least information on the screenplay development.

Will
Txo ayngal tse'a keyeyit, oeyä txoa livu.  I am learning Na'vi too!
If you see a mistake in my post please correct me!

Please help on the Movie Lines in Na'vi wiki page

Tirea Pa'li

#3
removed
From all the weapons you have used against us, we always feared your guns least!

Nìwotxkrr Tìyawn

I would love to believe in Gaia but I just don't. I'm not one for the all powerful god type things really. However I do believe that all life on this planet is connected, everything living came from that single first bacteria-like creature. It just blows my mind whenever I think about it; grass, rabbits, doggies, kitties, fishies, dolphins, algae, birds, etc. we're all cousins of each other I think its just awesome. This doesn't mean I'm vegan or anything, I believe in the circle of life (yay lion king!) so ya I still eat meat.
Naruto Shippuden Episode 166: Confession
                                    Watch it, Love it, Live it

kharul_karyu

Quote from: Will Txankamuse on January 27, 2010, 11:44:40 PM
Quote from: kharul_karyu on January 27, 2010, 11:06:07 PM
Ever since I saw Avatar a few weeks ago, I have been searching for a novelization to address my hunger for backstories to Avatar... of course, without any luck.
James Cameron has announced he's working on a Novel [source], and I would guess that the bluray/dvd will also have quite a lot of backstory or at least information on the screenplay development.

Will


The novel is not available right now... and to top it all off, I'm a restless person. :/

*sigh*

I love to think about random stuff. I hope perhaps you do, too! :D

kharul_karyu

Quote from: Doxy on January 27, 2010, 11:39:48 PM
Very interesting read!

I can totally understand why some people who have expressed no prior believe in a "central Deity" can come out of this movie being tugged in that direction.

Have you ever heard of the Gaia Theory?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaia_hypothesis

It's a theory that categorizes the entire Earth as a whole living organism, not just a hunk of rock with a big fat biosphere surrounding it. It is the idea that everything from the biosphere down to the core of the earth is alive, and thus connected, and able to regulate itself to adapt to us.
There's plenty of evidence to support it, like the fact that the Earth WILL indeed cleanse itself when need arises, and is a a self-repairing system.
Weak Gaia: is basically the above. Earth is a massive, adaptable organism in a sense, with channels of energy running through it.
Strong Gaia: Is also the above, but the idea of Earth as a Sentient organism that will often change it's features and surface to suit man. Also has a fair amount of evidence.

*snip*

Because of this, I don't foresee Man to Destroy the Earth. I foresee hem to destroy Himself. The Earth will ALWAYS be there, and will always be in control. When our bombs wipe us and our buildings to rubble, the Earth will ALWAYS repair itself, cleanse itself, and reclaim its land. It may not seem like it, but Earth is still very much in control. She's a tough chick, not some weak animal we need to protect.

I seem to remember from somewhere that in-growth like daffodils (or something to that effect!) and the like at the Chernobyl nuclear accident site in Russia. Even in the face of radiation, Nature takes on the burden of repairing what "we" have done to Earth.

I just don't want to know the fact(s) of what all of this will look like if we try to kill ourselves or even all Life on Earth. I don't have that sense of morbid curiosity.

That reminds me the earlier link I found about plants having intelligence (or something!!!) between them. I can accept the notion of green matter being on par with grey matter. But living in this crazy civilization of America, some people cannot get over the simplest of notions about anything. They are hopelessly lost on "page 1" whereas some people have "finished the book" years ago.

So by mere association... I guess... we Humans are not as smart as we could be because some folks are dropping the collective IQ. Uhm, sad... I think. :P
I love to think about random stuff. I hope perhaps you do, too! :D

kharul_karyu

Quote from: Tirea Pa'li on January 28, 2010, 02:25:18 AM
Not very good.
Most of the analysis is poor both in depth and quality.
We have better here on the forum.

*sigh*

Sorry! I hope to learn better! LOL :/
I love to think about random stuff. I hope perhaps you do, too! :D

Nawm Karyu

Hmmmmmm - thinking ensues.

I'll put this in the best way that I can express at the moment.

We are here on this forum because of various reasons. First and foremost is Avatar, then the language of the Na'vi. Now the culture and the way of life described in the movie is beginning to sink in and make people think.

I would like to share something I think we should learn, regardless if you took it from the movie or not: Acceptance.

For everybody, that is here on the forum, saying that they want to be blue or Na'vi, or on Pandora. To them and others I say: lets take it step by step. If we want to start such a long journey towards changing our current, predominantly western ways" we just need to take that first step. So accept other people, see that they aren't evil or bad. It is what is inside that matters just as the Omaticaya learned about Jake.  Tirea Pa'li I can see that you comment has offended kharul_karyu. Would it occur to you that we currently have no notion of what is better?. Why are the Na'vi better than humans? You might answer this logically, but I can counter most of those ideas...

So mawey ma smukan sì smuke... Everyone is entitled for an idea, an opinion, and an interpretation. We should all first LEARN TO LISTEN and then learn how to change (if that is what one wants). Even here, I'll go out on a limb and say that you do not need to heed my words either, since I do believe that if you do not want to listen then I cannot say anything else.


kharul_karyu I liked your post, I read trough it all, and I hope to bring some more things to this table of disscusions, since you raise some very interesting points.

Txena Unil

kharul_karyu, your situation resembles mine, though I haven't explored as much. Bravo for the effort!

Nawm Karyu, in my opinion you focused Avatar's idea too much. The way of life described in the movie speaks of more than just acceptance, but of peace in every way. Avoiding sarcasm, narcissism, wastefulness for example. Acceptance is just a part of this.

kharul_karyu

Quote from: Nawm Karyu on January 29, 2010, 10:08:31 AM
Tirea Pa'li I can see that you comment has offended kharul_karyu.

Tirea's perspective could be that I could have written less, maybe wasting less of people's time. I get that, it often happens to me. My brain branches out thoughts like a tree and sometimes people look at me and say "What?" after I spent a minute answering a yes or no question... or something like that.

ADHD is for the person afflicted with the disorder to get over, not the rest of the world. But it just so happens that Avatar might have so much more to say about humans than what is first apparent.

Sorry. The movie just can't shut me up. :P
I love to think about random stuff. I hope perhaps you do, too! :D

Tirea Pa'li

Sorry if i have offended someone.
I just think that you have to read some more before, analyzing.
There are topics dealing at length whit most questions.
Doesnt mean i judge someone or someones idea. I just say what i think.
Its always only one POV.
And one should be very careful when dealing  judgements as even the very wise cannot see all ends.  
From all the weapons you have used against us, we always feared your guns least!

kharul_karyu

Quote from: Txena Unil on January 29, 2010, 10:58:42 AM
kharul_karyu, your situation resembles mine, though I haven't explored as much. Bravo for the effort!

Thanks for noticing, Txena Unil. :)

"If an attempt isn't made, then all hope is lost."

By the way, what situation do you mean? Do you have ADHD too?
I love to think about random stuff. I hope perhaps you do, too! :D

Kätsyín te Zotxekay Tsyal’itan

It seems to me that Avatar as far as the advancement of science is concerned is a huge leap forward.

That we could be capable of genetically modifing alien species so that we could remotely "drive" them, is mind boggling. The movie also suggests to me that we ourselves make very few advancements in warfare. If you think about it, the Scorpion gunships aren't a far cry from the V-22 Ospery aircraft. In addition, while we can remotely control our Avatars, we still are using rifles with self-contained cartridges, not the advanced laser/beam weapons we think we'll have.

Just my 2 cents.
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LearnNavi Forums:
"It's not an addiction...I just need it everyday."

Nìwotxkrr Tìyawn

Jaffa staff weapons are the weapons of the future! FTW!
Naruto Shippuden Episode 166: Confession
                                    Watch it, Love it, Live it

kharul_karyu

Quote from: Tukru Tsamsiyu on January 29, 2010, 01:07:26 PM
In addition, while we can remotely control our Avatars, we still are using rifles with self-contained cartridges, not the advanced laser/beam weapons we think we'll have.

Actually, that is a source of hope from me. No real advancement in warfare could be a good thing. I mean, even in naming or labeling tactics, "shock and awe," while it seems we as humans are still the crude and greedy individuals that we really are, like those back in 1492... I would not want anything more than that.

Actually, one would THINK we could actually get beyond that crude and greedy behavior. Maybe the future of Pandora has some sort of hope, unseen by the first film but to be revealed in the upcoming ones.
I love to think about random stuff. I hope perhaps you do, too! :D

Tirea Pa'li

#16
Quote from: Kìte'eyä Aungia on January 29, 2010, 01:52:04 PM
Quote from: Tirea Pa'li on January 28, 2010, 02:25:18 AM
Not very good.
Most of the analysis is poor both in depth and quality.
We have better here on the forum.

Quote from: Tirea Pa'li on January 29, 2010, 11:08:04 AM
Sorry if i have offended someone.
I just think that you have to read some more before, analyzing.
There are topics dealing at length whit most questions.
Doesnt mean i judge someone or someones idea. I just say what i think.
Its always only one POV.
And one should be very careful when dealing  judgements as even the very wise cannot see all ends. 

Your post, reproduced above, was dismissive and insulting and added nothing of value to the discussion. Coming into a thread where someone is discussing their ideas only to say the equivalent of "you're stupid" is not acceptable. Nor, IMO, is it accurate, but please, if you think the analysis is so "poor in deph and quality", point out where you think it could be improved or provide links to the superior analyses you mentioned.

Seems to me you have a problem whit people not sharing your point of view. Well people are different, and there are many opinions. You cant say i`am insulting someone, just because i dont share the same perspective.
This is not a court case and i will not try to prove why i dont like something. I dont need to. Those are not facts that can be proven.

But since i`am forced here...i`ll have to quote something i dont like.
QuoteWell, I mean... other than having a character talk to another character after the first character "disconnects" from a tree...
- not understanding tsaheylu, reasons why Na`vi dont have a word for "Lie". They have to use the english word, that Grace told them...etc.
QuoteI think the rock known as unobtanium, especially those found around the roots of trees in the movie is the actual object that holds information for Eywa.
- dont know what unobtanium is.
QuoteBut can a sentient being have "many" (backup?) brains??? I mean, either trees or rocks... Well, Eywa was still alive after the Tree of Voices was destroyed... I don't know, I'm just throwing ideas around.
- Eywa beaing a "sentient beeing" having "backup brains"??? Next thing i`am gonna see is "Eywa is The Internet". You can connect and download your favorite songs from iTunes!" I realy dont see how this is a good analysis. Eywa is a deity this excluding the "sentient" and "being" and "brains". The very theory of perceiving Eywa as the mere connection between the roots of the trees, some sort of unobtanium HDD and "being" and "brains" is shallow. Eywa is eternal, immaterial, omnipresent. Explain how the wild animals decided to attack? Maybe they bonded this the Sacred Tree while noone`s lookin? "Eywa was still alive after the Tree of Voices was destroyed" - not THE tree of voices. One of them. Eywa cannot be killed. Not until all that she is is dead. Destroying the tree and the attempt to bomb the Sacred Tree, must destroy the bond that the Na`vi have whit Eywa, not to "kill" her. I can go on....
And one more, so you cant say i`am all bad. There`s some realy good stuff.
Quoteshould note it's a well documented "theory" that something like that happened between Mars and Earth in real life with what seems to be a Mars meteorite. Maybe life didn't piggyback on any Mars meteorite, but it seems that the rock did possibly, POSSIBLY come from Mars.
Theory why the Gas Giants from the outer Solar system might be the real cause behind life on our solar system. Earth and Mars (a lot smaller) "received" particles of splintered comets, swayed of course by the immense gravity of those Gas Giants. Yeah we received "the seeds of life" from somewhere else outside our small corner or interstellar space. Just a theory, but its very interesting, and worth mentioning.
Those are random examples.

I`am not saying that i know every single piece of avatar lore, but even whit the very little that i know i find a lot of holes in the above mentioned scripture.
Of course i accept the possibility of me being wrong as there`s no text carved in stone about the problems we discus here.
I advocate not to trust this blindly!
From all the weapons you have used against us, we always feared your guns least!

kharul_karyu

Tirea Pa'li:

I'm sorry, I am going to snip some of these points so I can clean some of this up. If there is a debate about what I said, I want to have it. Not that I think someone is right and the other person is wrong. I just like to understand the movie better. If you have a point of view to the point that you can make sense of it, that's really good. I want to see how you understand Avatar.

Anyway...

*snip*

Quote from: Tirea Pa'li on January 28, 2010, 02:25:18 AM
QuoteBut can a sentient being have "many" (backup?) brains??? I mean, either trees or rocks... Well, Eywa was still alive after the Tree of Voices was destroyed... I don't know, I'm just throwing ideas around.

Eywa beaing a "sentient beeing" having "backup brains"??? Next thing i`am gonna see is "Eywa is The Internet". You can connect and download your favorite songs from iTunes!" I realy dont see how this is a good analysis. Eywa is a deity this excluding the "sentient" and "being" and "brains". The very theory of perceiving Eywa as the mere connection between the roots of the trees, some sort of unobtanium HDD and "being" and "brains" is shallow. Eywa is eternal, immaterial, omnipresent. Explain how the wild animals decided to attack? Maybe they bonded this the Sacred Tree while noone`s lookin? "Eywa was still alive after the Tree of Voices was destroyed" - not THE tree of voices. One of them. Eywa cannot be killed. Not until all that she is is dead. Destroying the tree and the attempt to bomb the Sacred Tree, must destroy the bond that the Na`vi have whit Eywa, not to "kill" her. I can go on....
And one more, so you cant say i`am all bad. There`s some realy good stuff.

I am a person that loves explanation. I love to know the who, what, where, why, when and how on all sorts of things... that's why I love science. Science can explain everything.

But science cannot explain faith. Similarly, it cannot explain my faith. I am not a religious person in the sense that I need to follow a mainstream religion because I don't. I do truly dislike mainstream religions in their justification for war and other violence. But you could still apply faith to me. Somehow, somewhere, there is some spirit out there. I guess it might be easier to accept various things if I could get my head into mainstream religion, just so I wouldn't need to question everything. But I won't go there for the violence.

The reason I cite in regards to Avatar is that I cannot explain my faith, my clairvoyance, that, faced in a disbelief in the future, I brushed it off. "That will never happen." But it did. Because of the event, it made me cry in an end to a shocking day I might never forget.

I want things explained. I guess I'll never know where the "clairvoyant" messages come from, but I still try to explain it with research. Maybe I can't understand Eywa either, but that doesn't mean I won't try explaining her through research either.

So in regards to Avatar, I understand the souls of plants and the souls of animals are interlinked. I really love that idea. And from what I got in Avatar, the animals, at random, were separately informed, as the animals made connections with Eywa. How do I know? I don't. But the odds of all being "jacked in" and all rush into battle at once is almost impossible. What I think happened is that Eywa informed a series of animals to follow other animals and to do what they do. Once the last few of animals reached to Eywa inform the last few animals, she had them rush to a specific place or against a certain person or vehicle. In that way, there was a "pyramid effect" of sorts that I felt Eywa built against the humans.

Yes, I'm sure there are other sacred trees and altars in Pandora. But it seemed to me that, watching the movie, the Omaticaya clan had a limited number of sacred locales themselves, just possibly like any other clan has available to them.

Quote from: Tirea Pa'li on January 28, 2010, 02:25:18 AM
Quoteshould note it's a well documented "theory" that something like that happened between Mars and Earth in real life with what seems to be a Mars meteorite. Maybe life didn't piggyback on any Mars meteorite, but it seems that the rock did possibly, POSSIBLY come from Mars.
Theory why the Gas Giants from the outer Solar system might be the real cause behind life on our solar system. Earth and Mars (a lot smaller) "received" particles of splintered comets, swayed of course by the immense gravity of those Gas Giants. Yeah we received "the seeds of life" from somewhere else outside our small corner or interstellar space. Just a theory, but its very interesting, and worth mentioning.
Those are random examples.

I know that what you said here you didn't intend for me to think about this, but I love what you said here about gas giants like Jupiter and Saturn. I actually think they protect Earth from being heavily damaged.

http://science.slashdot.org/story/09/07/26/1332240/Is-Jupiter-Earths-Cosmic-Protector

Who knows what really happened where dinosaurs were wiped off the Earth, or how it avoided Jupiter

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicxulub_crater#Chicxulub_and_mass_extinction

Regards,
Kha'rul
I love to think about random stuff. I hope perhaps you do, too! :D

Tìng Eywatikìte'e

Tirea Pa'li

You're walking on dangerous ground. Be respectful of your fellow forum members.
Oeri lu Eywayä 'eveng


kharul_karyu

Well, I'd like it to be known that I don't harbor anything bad against the person. I know rules are rules, but one might be surprised how many people seem to shake their heads or are somehow otherwise annoyed by what I say or do.

I can't be offended every time I accidentally offend someone. I try to apologize and move on.

One might think I was C-3PO or something. :/ LOL

Oh well...
I love to think about random stuff. I hope perhaps you do, too! :D