Author Topic: Spirituality and religion thoughts (and more?)...  (Read 1434 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Tsmuktengan

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 1482
  • Karma: 13
Spirituality and religion thoughts (and more?)...
« on: November 20, 2011, 09:36:59 am »
I proclaim Na'vin Nosferatu's topic free from the awesome Off-topicness. Hrh!  ;D

So, where were we... ah, yes!

I'm not sure. I do feel that the ancient practices in particularly linked with religion does worry me, including health and sickness. But there are very interesting and attractive things on the spiritual base.

Concerning the relation with the Na'vi... mystery. ;)


Oe mllte.

Quote from the nonreligious- "Religion was made to control the masses". If that's the truth, it's worked pretty well.

I'm not sure. I do feel that the ancient practices in particularly linked with religion does worry me, including health and sickness. But there are very interesting and attractive things on the spiritual base.

Concerning the relation with the Na'vi... mystery. ;)


Oe mllte.

Quote from the nonreligious- "Religion was made to control the masses". If that's the truth, it's worked pretty well.

I think people allow themselves to be controlled.  Most seem to prefer that someone else do their thinking for them.  :P


Well religion, in what it is really meant to be, is a form of government. It is the attempt to take the natural man and refine him in a way. Not thinking about the teachings of men, if you purely read religious texts they almost always speak of how one should act, whether that be fidelity to one's partner, kindness/love to one another, or performing selflessness. Yet the concept of religion, just like any other idea, has most definitely been hijacked by some, and attempts to be preserved by others. Just like ideas of freedom, fascism, and other subtle things. The messages are purely, yet almost always adultered by man for their own gain. Yet one must not forget, how Ghandi said it best, "Just because someone drops a bit of dirty water in the ocean does not make the entire ocean dirty."

Oe mllte.

I usually try to strictly distinguish politics/way of governing, spirituality and religion (probably because this is part of my French culture, take this into account, what follows is only my own point of view, no offense intended in case there is).  ;)

Religion appears to me to help giving a way to people, especially in the ancient times when humans knew much less in any thing about education and science. Depending on how it is interpreted, religion is a characteristic of what forms the core of a society, and give people a way, customs, and culture. It also brings spirituality and can shape the way people see and imagine (I especially think about Buddhism here. Not that other religions don't have spirituality, but in Christianity, it seems to me much more straight forward and egocentric).
What worries me is that when a religion is brought too far, it causes fanaticism, and therefore overthrows all kind of sensed and reasoned spirituality and consideration of the other, while the religion becomes the only thing to follow strictly for everyone. This has existed for all religion (Christianity, today and in the past (ie. Middle ages), Hinduism (Mohandas Gandhi was murdered by a fanatic), Islam (nowadays there is a certain proportion of extremists as we know) and even Judaic religion (Yitzhak Rabin has also been murdered by an extremist of his own religion) and I might forget others). With a slightly too rigid interpretation, that always depend on the concerned person, it can as I explain, cause a lot of issues and easily create huge conflicts.

By the way, this is among the reasons we have a secular republic in France : to avoid this kind of conflict that has devastated the country several times in its history, and ideally to see everyone treated equally and respectful. I am aware this is not the case everywhere in the world, but this is probably participating to my subjective thought.  ;)

This is why I tend to really prefer spirituality over religion : I see spirituality as a constant research of what can be good for us like for all the other people and living things, powered by reason and common sense. Unlike religion, spirituality is not as likely to overthrow reason (science, education, etc...) as long as the notions are clear as water and respectful of everyone.

I won't comment about the political and governmental aspect, as I think this is actually influenced by religion, spirituality and/or, more likely, culture. Politics also highly depend in the participant's education and way of living so this seems to be much more diverse, complex and therefore not related directly to spirituality or religion. There can also be excesses and radicalism in politics as in religion, but not necessarily for the same reasons, and it depends on many other things as well. :)

When you look at the Na'vi, they do have a religion (as it is extremely difficult to not have one in our heart actually), but it seems to me it has an immense spiritual base and a way of life that is balanced enough to probably avoid conflicts, unless they have to defend themselves for survival (as humans attack and progressively amputate their lands and rights). When they take Jake in, they could have rejected him or killed him, as being an enemy, but they didn't. Instead, they shared their knowledge and way of life, not without apprehensions, but with natural and spiritual openness.

In conclusion, this is why I welcomed and found interesting the spiritual side of Hoʻoponopono, but this is also why I am automatically very cautious about it's religious aspect. I have to say I have been very close and attracted by the Ubuntu notion and philosophy, and Avatar actually increased this attraction. I give it a great importance since it appears to be very balanced, and may shape my way of thinking and living, and think it is very interesting spiritually in many aspects.

Now, what do you think about all this? I always try to be the most balanced possible.  :)


Offline Seze Mune

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 2052
  • Karma: 39
  • Fwa kan ke lu nìtam. Nga zene swizawit livonu.
    • Our fun & awesome RP: Aysautral
Re: Spirituality and religion thoughts (and more?)...
« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2011, 12:16:45 pm »
I plan on responding to this interesting thread, but it will have to be later this evening for me.  You and ExLibrisMortis make some good points. :)

Offline Nìmwey

  • 'Eveng
  • ***
  • Posts: 208
  • Karma: 6
Re: Spirituality and religion thoughts (and more?)...
« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2011, 03:35:43 pm »
Hmm... okay, the original thread got off topic, but what happened to it? It's gone? ???

Offline Seze Mune

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 2052
  • Karma: 39
  • Fwa kan ke lu nìtam. Nga zene swizawit livonu.
    • Our fun & awesome RP: Aysautral
Re: Spirituality and religion thoughts (and more?)...
« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2011, 05:21:31 pm »
Kehe, the original thread is Na'vin Nosferatu's.  Something like "I guess I'll go it alone."

Offline Seze Mune

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 2052
  • Karma: 39
  • Fwa kan ke lu nìtam. Nga zene swizawit livonu.
    • Our fun & awesome RP: Aysautral
Re: Spirituality and religion thoughts (and more?)...
« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2011, 05:45:04 pm »


Well religion, in what it is really meant to be, is a form of government. It is the attempt to take the natural man and refine him in a way. Not thinking about the teachings of men, if you purely read religious texts they almost always speak of how one should act, whether that be fidelity to one's partner, kindness/love to one another, or performing selflessness. Yet the concept of religion, just like any other idea, has most definitely been hijacked by some, and attempts to be preserved by others. Just like ideas of freedom, fascism, and other subtle things. The messages are purely, yet almost always adulterated by man for their own gain. Yet one must not forget, how Gandhi said it best, "Just because someone drops a bit of dirty water in the ocean does not make the entire ocean dirty."

Religions do set forth ideals, but they are not the same ideals from one religion to another.  I would not say that Warren Jeff's religion is much like most accepted Christian religions nor would I say that Christian Science is much like Taoism, Sikhism or Odinani.

I make a distinction between religion and spirituality because in spirituality the locus of control is internal whereas in religion, the locus of control is external.  With religion, you are expected to conform to a prescribed set of behaviors and there are consequences if you do not.  Governments can usurp this mindset and twist it so that if you do not conform to the government's ideology in such-and-such a way, then you are not a good practicing member of your religion.  This seems to be a strong characteristic of fundamentalist Islam and certain mid-East governments, but it is not unheard of in Europe or the Americas.

In my opinion, a deep spiritual communion would naturally lead to constructive behaviors, so long as there is no intervening external authority to subvert it.  But of course I cannot prove this unless it's by my own life experience which seems to bear it out so far.

Offline Tsmuktengan

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 1482
  • Karma: 13
Re: Spirituality and religion thoughts (and more?)...
« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2011, 07:40:41 pm »

I am with you on all your points ma tsmuke.

I am thinking that clear basic principles could be the best base for a spirituality that shall not go against good sense, people, logic and rights.


Offline Seze Mune

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 2052
  • Karma: 39
  • Fwa kan ke lu nìtam. Nga zene swizawit livonu.
    • Our fun & awesome RP: Aysautral
Re: Spirituality and religion thoughts (and more?)...
« Reply #6 on: November 20, 2011, 10:57:53 pm »

I am with you on all your points ma tsmuke.

I am thinking that clear basic principles could be the best base for a spirituality that shall not go against good sense, people, logic and rights.

Mllte oe.


Offline Nìmwey

  • 'Eveng
  • ***
  • Posts: 208
  • Karma: 6
Re: Spirituality and religion thoughts (and more?)...
« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2011, 04:10:38 am »
Kehe, the original thread is Na'vin Nosferatu's.  Something like "I guess I'll go it alone."
Of course I know that, but it's gone. When I try to open the adress, it just sais it has been removed or that I don't have permission to view it.

Offline Seze Mune

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 2052
  • Karma: 39
  • Fwa kan ke lu nìtam. Nga zene swizawit livonu.
    • Our fun & awesome RP: Aysautral
Re: Spirituality and religion thoughts (and more?)...
« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2011, 10:21:57 am »
I see Eywa in all of this:


Offline Seze Mune

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 2052
  • Karma: 39
  • Fwa kan ke lu nìtam. Nga zene swizawit livonu.
    • Our fun & awesome RP: Aysautral
Re: Spirituality and religion thoughts (and more?)...
« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2011, 09:00:30 pm »
Kehe, the original thread is Na'vin Nosferatu's.  Something like "I guess I'll go it alone."
Of course I know that, but it's gone. When I try to open the adress, it just sais it has been removed or that I don't have permission to view it.

You were right.  Na'vin deleted his own thread.  :'(

Offline Tsmuktengan

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 1482
  • Karma: 13
Re: Spirituality and religion thoughts (and more?)...
« Reply #10 on: November 23, 2011, 10:16:09 am »
Ngaytxoa ma tsmuke, but I fail to see what you mean where you see Eywa... it is far too complex for me (I might need to reopen my philosophy books...).

Could you rephrase that for me? I'd like to understand.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2011, 08:24:03 am by Tsmuktengan »


Offline Tsmuktengan

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 1482
  • Karma: 13
Re: Spirituality and religion thoughts (and more?)...
« Reply #11 on: November 26, 2011, 04:49:34 pm »
* Tsmuktengan feels forgotten...  :'(


Offline Seze Mune

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 2052
  • Karma: 39
  • Fwa kan ke lu nìtam. Nga zene swizawit livonu.
    • Our fun & awesome RP: Aysautral
Re: Spirituality and religion thoughts (and more?)...
« Reply #12 on: November 26, 2011, 06:02:08 pm »
Ngaytxoa, ma Tsmuktengan.  I did not follow up because I was not sure what to say.  I will give it a try, though.  :D

I speak only for myself here, so my feelings about Eywa may be different from others' perceptions.  To me, Eywa is the self-conscious gestalt of the lifeforce on Pandora...perhaps even in the universe (that would be a different topic for a different time, I think). What I see in the Na'vi ability to connect to the Tree of Voices and the Tree of Souls is their ability to connect to different sub-portions of Eywa.  The portion of Eywa which is within each living thing, is the portion which is concerned with that individual life.  It is lent to the individual while it is alive and then it is returned when the individual releases its physical body.  While the individual is living, that portion of Eywa is aware of itself both as an individual and as part of the greater lifeforce.  This is why Jake's individual communication with the Mother Tree ("I'm probably just talking to a tree right now.  But if you're there -- I need to give you a heads up...") ... resulted in the entire lifeforce of Pandora responding to his request.

When it says above:

"You as a consciousness, seek to know yourself, and to some extent or
other, you become aware of your self as a distinct and individual
portion of All That Is [to me All That Is = Eywa]. You not only draw upon this overall energy,
but you do so automatically, for your existence is dependent upon
it.

The extent of your realization of this fact is the extent of your
freedom or vitality, fulfillment and power.
[And this is where Neytiri realizes that because this is true, she need not fear the palulukan, so she accepts the power and becomes a palulukan maktoyu]
It should not be forgotten, however, that the ego is also a portion of All That Is, a
highly specialized portion, enabling the inner self to manipulate and
interpret particular conditions.

If the ego considers itself as the only self, then you are cut off to
a large degree from the vitality and energy available.
[and this is why Jake thought perhaps he was only talking to a tree, because he did not recognize his true connection to Eywa and to all things]
The ego's false ideas prevent it from accepting this energy, but once the ego
is aware of its position as a portion of the self, then it should not
be shunted aside, but can take its place."
[And perhaps this is a good place to begin development of the Avatar 2 story, the understanding and development of the connection to Eywa]

How is that for starters, ma tsumkan Tsmuktegan? ;D
« Last Edit: November 26, 2011, 06:06:25 pm by Seze Mune »

Offline Tsmuktengan

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 1482
  • Karma: 13
Re: Spirituality and religion thoughts (and more?)...
« Reply #13 on: November 27, 2011, 05:59:19 pm »
Quote
How is that for starters, ma tsumkan Tsmuktegan? ;D

Nang! I like it, ma tsmuke Seze Mune! Irayo.  :)

Quote
I speak only for myself here, so my feelings about Eywa may be different from others' perceptions.  To me, Eywa is the self-conscious gestalt of the lifeforce on Pandora...perhaps even in the universe (that would be a different topic for a different time, I think). What I see in the Na'vi ability to connect to the Tree of Voices and the Tree of Souls is their ability to connect to different sub-portions of Eywa.  The portion of Eywa which is within each living thing, is the portion which is concerned with that individual life.  It is lent to the individual while it is alive and then it is returned when the individual releases its physical body.  While the individual is living, that portion of Eywa is aware of itself both as an individual and as part of the greater lifeforce.  This is why Jake's individual communication with the Mother Tree ("I'm probably just talking to a tree right now.  But if you're there -- I need to give you a heads up...") ... resulted in the entire lifeforce of Pandora responding to his request.

Yes. I have a similar view, considering we have a part of the nature that is all around us. But we also do have an energy that is given by our mother at the very start of our life, and that is given back to nature when we die. Jake actually explains this in the movie, from the learnings from Neytiri, that this energy is only lended, and that in the end, you have to give it back (I already started to imagine this concept shortly before seeing Avatar actually).

This is very inspiring.

Quote
"You as a consciousness, seek to know yourself, and to some extent or
other, you become aware of your self as a distinct and individual
portion of All That Is [to me All That Is = Eywa]. You not only draw upon this overall energy,
but you do so automatically, for your existence is dependent upon
it.

Yes. I see.

Quote
The extent of your realization of this fact is the extent of your
freedom or vitality, fulfillment and power.
[And this is where Neytiri realizes that because this is true, she need not fear the palulukan, so she accepts the power and becomes a palulukan maktoyu]
It should not be forgotten, however, that the ego is also a portion of All That Is, a
highly specialized portion, enabling the inner self to manipulate and
interpret particular conditions.

I think I see...

Quote
If the ego considers itself as the only self, then you are cut off to
a large degree from the vitality and energy available.
[and this is why Jake thought perhaps he was only talking to a tree, because he did not recognize his true connection to Eywa and to all things]
The ego's false ideas prevent it from accepting this energy, but once the ego
is aware of its position as a portion of the self, then it should not
be shunted aside, but can take its place."
[And perhaps this is a good place to begin development of the Avatar 2 story, the understanding and development of the connection to Eywa]

Hmm, well, if I understand what you say, the ego would be something subconscious? I don't know, I am conscious most of the time of my (oversized) ego, and I attempt to manage it and adjust it. So I fail to see what the ego decides on its own, as I tend to decide how I can limit mine, depending on the situation.

I have great difficulty to find and conceptualize this connection we may have to nature and many things. I tend to think that we are entities interacting with each other and many other things.


Offline Seze Mune

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 2052
  • Karma: 39
  • Fwa kan ke lu nìtam. Nga zene swizawit livonu.
    • Our fun & awesome RP: Aysautral
Re: Spirituality and religion thoughts (and more?)...
« Reply #14 on: November 27, 2011, 06:50:34 pm »
The ego considers itself conscious, but it only relatively conscious...considering there are so many parts of a personality which are considered 'subconscious' and unavailable to the ego.  A truly conscious being would have complete access to all parts of itself and nothing would be unconscious or subconscious.

Also, the ego believes it is the sum total of your identity and does not admit these other parts, nor the connections which are available through Eywa to all living things.

And ma tsmukan, you most certainly do NOT have an oversized ego at all ~ I admire your balanced outlook on all things and your kind and generous treatment of all other beings..

Offline Tsmuktengan

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 1482
  • Karma: 13
Re: Spirituality and religion thoughts (and more?)...
« Reply #15 on: November 28, 2011, 01:34:17 pm »
Thank you ma tsmuke. :)

I see what you mean. This makes sense, although it all depends on each of us as we obviously don't have the same minds.

I tend to be conscious of as much tings I do and think as possible. But then the key is to actually be conscious of other people and living things, to have this conscious of 'the other'. Could it be a way to of accepting the connections which are available through Eywa to all living things, more or less regardless of the ego?

I see Eywa as a personification of Nature in it's totality and what it implies (even though it seems to be a goddess for the Na'vi). So this may differ from your view, I am not sure.


Offline Tsmuktengan

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 1482
  • Karma: 13
Re: Spirituality and religion thoughts (and more?)...
« Reply #16 on: December 27, 2011, 07:37:41 pm »
I would have liked to continue this conversation, if ma Seze Mune isn't too busy.


 

Become LearnNavi's friend on Facebook Follow LearnNavi on Twitter! Watch LearnNavi's videos on YouTube

SMF 2.0.15 | SMF © 2017, Simple Machines | XHTML | RSS | WAP2 | Site Rules

LearnNavi is not affiliated with the official Avatar website,
James Cameron, or the Twentieth Century-Fox Film Corporation.
All trademarks and servicemarks are the properties of their respective owners.
Images in the LearnNavi.org Forums and Gallery may not be used without permission.

LearnNavi Affiliates:
ToS

LearnNavi is the community to learn Na'vi, the Avatar Language
"A place where real friendships are made." -Paul Frommer

AvatarMeet | Learn Na'vi Forum | Learn Na'vi Wiki | Na'viteri

LearnNavi