the climate change - just a fake to scare people?!

Started by Nantxe'lan, December 17, 2010, 06:33:03 AM

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Nantxe'lan

i was pretty surprised to see such a theory on a german open discussion board and i was quite shocked how many people believed this. it annoyed me a bit but i thought "nevermind, half of them even believe that Elvis Presley was an alien and that he is still alive on another planet". and i didn't mind it anymore. but yesterday some of my friends started to discuss about climate change and i was horrified that most of them think the climate change is just a fake to scare people. i tried to discuss with them but they cherished this idea like fundamentalists.
they made jokes about standing in the snow while the whole world was talking about global warming. next they mentioned that it used to be called "global warming" but since it is getting colder every winter they had to rename it to "climate change".

it is almost funny that they even contradicted themselves, for example they gainsaid that the climate is changing and in the next sentence they said that 20cm (~7.8 inc) of snow in less than 6 hours is very uncommon in this region where snow was quite scarce in the last 20 years.

first snow this year fell in early november while usually (if at all) it doesn't snow before late december. also the seasons aren't that clear anymore. it is more like (frosty winter -> too cold, rainy winter -> short hot period -> disgusting rainy winter -> and so on). spring awakening? golden autumn? not really. and my friends even confirmed that. but they still gainsaid that the climate is changing, aswell as they don't believe that the polar ice caps are still melting. some even said that they never started to melt at all.
as i mentioned the loss of permafrost soil, two of them said that *if* it was true, it would even be sign against climate change - without beeing able to explain why.

now i just don't know if i should be angry, sad, or amused about such narrow-minded believes...
i guess "sadness" is the strongest feeling i have about this discussion in hindsight...

have you ever heard of this theory? do you believe it is true or do you know people who believe that climate change is just a fake?
ok, maybe governments and media might exagerate concerning the climate change. but am i really the only person who thinks that this fake-theory is nothing but bullsh*t?
"All I ever wanted in my sorry-ass life was a single thing worth fighting for."
"Sometimes your whole life boils down to one insane move."
Atxkxe - I somehow love this word.

Oeru syaw Nantxe'lan taluna oeri txe'lan 'efu na txe'lan nantangä.
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Tonbogiri

I have heard of this theory, and the many others that people have designed in order to distance their responsibility from the problems of global warming.
But they seem to be just that - ideas to make us feel better. If global warming is occurring, then it will take an effort from every single person on the planet - and some people may not want to give up their hot showers. Of these people, maybe one or two would be scientists or charismatic - meaning that they could persuade others to believe their theory. This is the basis of the "no global warming" theory.

England's weather is certainly acting up - getting worse at both ends each year (hottest and coldest) - and the lower lying pacific islands are getting swamped by rising sea levels. Coupled with rising CO2 levels in the atmosphere, the evidence is mounting...

But even if they do not believe in global warming, surely they must realise the damage we cause to the world anyway - would it be so hard to believe that we are also simply warming the planet up?

EDIT: The Monster Raving Loony political party have designed a surefire method of reducing the warming effect. Simply attach hundreds of air conditioning units to the outside of buildings; set the temperature to a comfortable 14.5 degrees c; amd switch on.


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Tsteu'itan

#2
I will step up and say I tend to avoid outright conversations about "global warming" or "climate change" because I feel a lot of it is fear mongering.  But hear me out for my reasons, and I'll see if I can make it easier for everyone to understand where I'm coming from and some of the other sides of the scientific theories that are out there.

When I was growing up, I studied for years to become a Paleontologist.  Since I was 5 years old, it was my passion, and it wasn't until I got into college and realized the insane levels of chemistry and math they required to do it that I decided it wasn't something I could do.  I'm not mathmatically inclined at all, but that's a story for another day.

I am used to looking at the Earth in terms of millions of years, even billions.  I've studied the way the Earth's climate has changed drastically in intense cycles.  Millions of species have gone extinct, entire ecosystems have been wiped out, entire continents have moved and shifted and changed in ways that humans won't have the racial experience to handle properly for another millions of years - if we survive that long.  There are scientists that have speculated that the Earth was due for another big change or big extinction any time now.  Maybe not in our lifetimes, maybe not in our childrens' lifetime, but there will be another one occur.  And none of the previous climate changes have had anything to do with the human race or the things we've done to the Earth.  Most of the previous extinctions were actually caused by things that were completely unrelated to our own actions.  Therefore, I tend to look at these things with a grain of salt.  The Earth is going to change, it's possible that species will die out as their evolutionary changes are proven to be not-well-adapted to their environment or the future changes the same as has happened millions of times before.  And it may not be caused by humans in the least.

I don't feel that the Earth is going to explode and die off if we go crazy.  We may very well wipe out many many species of life and cause a few of our own extinctions in the process.  But in the end, we'll only be killing ourselves, and once we're gone, the world will find a way to recuperate itself and grow back anew.  Short of some massive galactic catastrophe, I don't think that humans will ever truly destroy life on Earth.  We'll just make it so hard that we ourselves cannot survive on it.  Earth has an amazing way of healing herself, and I think it's egotistical to believe that we are the only reason the Earth is changing and that we are so powerful we can completely eradicate everything.

That's not to say that I don't think we should try to fix things.  Far from it.  I think if we can save what life we have now, then by all means, we should very much try and save things.  We have many millions of amazing plants and animals on this planet that are absolutely beautiful and fascinating.  It would be sad to see them die out, no matter what caused it.  And I certainly wouldn't want the world to change in such a way that we are unable to adapt to it ourselves.  Even if I think humans are a despicable species at times, I'm still quite happy to be here, and I think we can be quite fascinating as well.  It's a wonderful world we have and we should most definitely stop doing things that openly and obviously harm it's ecosystems or cause drastic changes that aren't a part of the natural world.  It will make us all healthier and it will make the planet happier in the long run.  We have to live together, we should learn to get along.

Look at it this way:  Even if we wipe out the major plants and animal species on the Earth and cause the ozone layer to thin and weaken, there will still be microbial and microscopic creatures that are lurking deep in the oceans, far below the line of the sun and where its' radiation can reach it.  That is what all life came from:  Microbial, microscopic organisms.  It may take another few billion years, but those creatures will release the compounds needed to strengthen the ozone layer again, they will create more oxygen, and they will grow and change and evolve into another series of amazing, beautiful, wonderful, fascinating creatures to populate the Earth once more.  They'll be even more amazing, even more fascinating, even more beautiful and strange then the ones we have now, simply because they will be so unlike anything we have now.  It's one large, frightening, amazing cycle of birth, life, death, and evolution that I feel will only end when the Earth itself is wiped out by the Sun's eventual implosion.

I'm well aware that my opinions aren't popular in this day and age.  And like I said, I'm not condoning humanity's actions.  Quite the opposite, I still feel we need to fight hard to protect what we have.  But that doesn't mean it's all our fault, and it doesn't mean we need to absolutely lose our minds worrying that we're going to do something to completely wipe Gaia out of existence.  From all I've seen in my studies, she's an amazingly resilient creature.  She certainly seems to enjoy doing things just to screw us up, just to remind us who's in charge here.

ETA:  I will make a side note:  I won't go all conspiracy-theorist and claim that the only reason people are going on about the climate change is because they want to scare people, but you have to keep in mind that all of the people pioneering for its halt - aside from the regular people like all of you here and even including the scientists who discovered the theories behind it - have something related to climate change that will earn them money.  Power companies want to start selling "greener" power sources, scientists get grants for research based on the theories they create and study, even car companies and other consumer goods make a little cash off of the vehicles and products they put out that are meant to be "green."  I understand the reason for being ecologically friendly in the things we do, but most of the time when I see a product on shelves that's touted as being "green" and "environmentally friendly," it usually makes me lift an eyebrow before I praise the company for doing their part.  They could have done their part all along.  They're only doing it now because they know it's what people want and what will get them more money.

Eyawng te Klltepayu

Quote from: Tsteu'itan on December 17, 2010, 08:30:27 PMBut in the end, we'll only be killing ourselves, and once we're gone, the world will find a way to recuperate itself and grow back anew.  

On longer timescales the future doesn't look quite so rosy. Earth only has around 0.5bn years before the sun's increasing luminosity sterilizes it. If life is to survive this event it needs us. We are the only species Earth has ever had that might perhaps be capable of making a dead world live. We will take Earth life to the places we terraform. We will green the sky.




If we survive. If we flourish and spread outward.
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Tsteu'itan

That, I will admit, is the one thing that saddens me.  There's nothing we can do to stop the eventual demise of the sun, and we can't move the planet away.  But you make a good point:  If we ever get enough space travel to move to other planets (Star Wars nerd in me hopes to God we do.  :P) then we could always "recreate" Earth on another planet with another sun by terraforming and bringing our life to other planets.

As an aside, the Christian-raised child in me likes to think that the creator will find a way of letting our world continue in one way or another for all eternity.  After all, if you believe in a great creator - regardless of what you call him/her/it/them - then they wrote the rules behind the Universe.  :P  But I understand that that's not at all scientific, and that there are people who don't believe in those types of things, so that's just my own hopes for the fate of the world and I understand if people think it's dumb.

Eyawng te Klltepayu

Quote from: Tsteu'itan on December 17, 2010, 08:54:06 PM
That, I will admit, is the one thing that saddens me.  There's nothing we can do to stop the eventual demise of the sun, and we can't move the planet away. 

We could put a sunshade at L1. Admittedly this would not be a long term solution.

For anyone interested in this kind of stuff I recommend books like Zubin's Entering Space. Back cover blurb from James Cameron!
Please tell me if you see mistakes in a Na'vi post of mine. It's the only way I'll learn. :P

Kan oe trro fnivan lì'fyat leNa'vi frapoto a foru ke sunängu rel arusikx alu Uniltìrantokx.

Eyamsiyu

#6
Here is how I see the whole global warming issue:

Is the world heating up?  Yes.

Are we affecting it? Yes.

Are we the main cause of it? NO!!

Throughout the history of the planet, regardless of whether you believe in millions of years, or the couple thousand that the Abrahamic religions believe, there has been constant flux in the planet's overall temperature.  We CAN affect this, but not enough to cause cataclysmic disaster.

EDIT: With that said, should we still try and clean up the Earth?  ABSOLUTELY!!!

On a related side note, I was going up to Jersey City to catch a transit to NYC, and I saw the oil refining factories on the way, and HUGE amounts of pollution was being pushed into the sky.  And I truly felt nauseated at the sight of it.


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Tsyal Maktoyu

I'll just leave this here.
http://www.alternet.org/environment/149101/top_10_climate-change_denier_arguments_debunked?page=1
More parts should be coming later.

I'm personally undecided, but I think it would best serve humanity if we aired on the side of caution.


Revolutionist

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Nantxe'lan

just an additional note about my POV:
I don't say that the climate won't change without us.
it is a matter of fact that earths climate is in a constant state of change. but i think - no, i believe - that the climate change happens way to fast because of mans destructive civilisation.

of course there are different oppinions about if mankind accelerates the climate change or not. although i think that we have a heavy impact on the ecosystem, i'm not talking about the debate about mans influence on climate change. i'm talking about those people who claim that there isn't any climate change at all - neither caused by nature nor accelerated by man. and neither now nor in future times.

i'm talking about the apparently growing numbers of people who think that climate won't change until the sun extinguishes.
"All I ever wanted in my sorry-ass life was a single thing worth fighting for."
"Sometimes your whole life boils down to one insane move."
Atxkxe - I somehow love this word.

Oeru syaw Nantxe'lan taluna oeri txe'lan 'efu na txe'lan nantangä.
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Txontaw

I'd like to point out that they recently changed "global warming" to "climate change", which tells you that they aren't as sure as they'd like you to think.

Like Eyamsiyu said, the world has always had these fluctuations in temperature. Whether we're going up or down, it's pretty much a natural process. There was more than one ice age, after all.

That said, we are obviously trashing the planet, which can't be good, no matter how much you think it affects the climate.
"You're not in Kansas anymore. You're on Pandora, Ladies and Gentlemen." - Colonel Quaritch


Key'ìl Nekxetse

Can everyone afford to take the risk that climate change is taking place due to human effects?
Key'ìl Nekxetse on "The Revolutionists"
~$ life --help
The program life received signal SIGSEV. Core dumped.

Txontaw

Quote from: Key'ìl Nekxetse on December 26, 2010, 04:03:11 PM
Can everyone afford to take the risk that climate change is taking place due to human effects?

Obviously not. However, I don't want everyone to go green simply because they don't want the planet to heat up, while remaining ignorant of the real problem with our destructiveness; we go against the cycle of life.

Think about it; we have always been pushing for longer lives, more successful births, protection from danger. Tech is not inherently bad. It's what we're doing with it that's the issue.

My point is, I think that people are focusing on the wrong things. If a movement does occur, it will be to protect our cushy lifestyle rather than to protect the natural cycle that has kept this planet going since the beginning.
"You're not in Kansas anymore. You're on Pandora, Ladies and Gentlemen." - Colonel Quaritch