Behind the scenes - Na'vi dialog for Jake

[omängum fra'uti]

I fixed the hivum in the transcription, my better quality TiVod copy also agrees with that, I just missed it proofreading Seabass' transcription.

[Toruk Makto]

DAMN I love watching you guys work. Fascinating!    I bow low!

[roger]

That would only work if 'irayo' was a verb, which I don't think it is. Even if it was, the laudatory form should be 'iray<ei>o'.

In Cameron's pre-Frommer script, the only word for 'thank you' is ireiyo. I had wondered why Frommer would change it, when he normally stuck so close to Cameron's intent, and now it looks like he may not have. More likely, "irayo" was an English pronunciation spelling for [irejo] that was picked up by the Survival Guide, which regularly got "ey" and "ew" wrong (like "neu" for new 'to want', etc.). Do we have any attestation of actual "irayo", either in writing, or sound clips with a clear [a] vowel?

I also wonder if this might not be the source of the <ei> infix. It could be that Frommer back-formed an underlying "irayo", but I'd like to see that attested somewhere.

[roger]

For now I'm content to consider this new vocab (or old vocab with new affixing).

I don't think there's any old word it could be. For slu, it would have to start w sl-. Has to be a new root. And the parallel with slu suggests it's uninflected, so I doubt we have any new infix in here.

[Kiliyä]

What about, rather than 'i-ray-o', the syllables 'i-ra-yo'.  That makes the sound much more like 'i-rei-yo'.

[Taronyu]

What about, rather than 'i-ray-o', the syllables 'i-ra-yo'.  That makes the sound much more like 'i-rei-yo'.

I think it's more likely that instead of i.ra.yo it's ir.ay.o, as we know that /ay/ is pronounced like american /pie/. /ei/ could be the orthographic convention to help the actors.

[roger]

I transcribed this independently last night, and except for stress (the underlining wasn't copied exactly, esp. in the first two lines), as far as I can see I agree with you to the letter.

A couple oddities:

Aylì'u na ayskxe mì te'lan "these words are like stones in my heart": note the absence of a verb. Does that mean na is a verb? Or is this simply a case of ellipsis?

"oeru": note how Frommer underlined both vowels in the informal, but only the o in formal "oheru". This matches the pronunciation of [weru], and later "ayoeng" [ay'weng]. It would seem that whenever the stress shifts to the e, the o becomes a [w] sound; the o remains in "oel" (though in "I See you" it seems to shift there too.)

Sounds like the double dative needed for "have for you" was covered elsewhere?

[Kiliyä]

What about, rather than 'i-ray-o', the syllables 'i-ra-yo'.  That makes the sound much more like 'i-rei-yo'.

I think it's more likely that instead of i.ra.yo it's ir.ay.o, as we know that /ay/ is pronounced like american /pie/. /ei/ could be the orthographic convention to help the actors.

I agree.  Just positing another variation.

[Nìwotxkrr Tìyawn]

A quick question, in the line ",ulte ngaru seiyi ireiyo", the word I didn't understand was "seiyi" what does it mean?

[roger]

I think it's more likely that instead of i.ra.yo it's ir.ay.o, as we know that /ay/ is pronounced like american /pie/. /ei/ could be the orthographic convention to help the actors.

Doesn't look like anything else has been respelled. It's all Frommer's orthography. Kameie, for example. Anyway, <ei> would cue the wrong pronunciation: "ey" as in "weigh". If he wanted [ay], I doubt he would've spelled it almost the same as kameie, which we know does have (approximately!) an "ey" sound.

It took me a while to figure out where the stress goes in "thank you", because it's so poorly attested. I'd really like to see an "irayo" if there is one.

As for it being [ir.ay.o], look at the script: ireiyo. That can only be [i.'re.i.yo]. Frommer underlines the entire stressed syllable. Besides, we have no reason to think Na'vi has a contrast between [ay.a] and [a.ya], and in fact plenty of reason to think that it doesn't.

[Lora Taw]

it seems as though this script has stirred things up a  bit and it really strikes home to me just how little we know about this language.
i cant wait for the other movies so that this language can grow

[roger]

I'd really like to see an "irayo" if there is one.

Never mind: Frommer says "irayo" in his emails. That settles it. Now we need to ask if we have two variants, and how they differ.

[roger]

I didn't understand ... "seiyi" what does it mean?

Seiyi is the positive-affect form of si "to do". Presumably because you can't have two like vowels in a row in Na'vi, the expected *seii becomes seiyi. The y just breaks things up for ease of pronunciation.

[Nìwotxkrr Tìyawn]

I didn't understand ... "seiyi" what does it mean?

Seiyi is the positive-affect form of si "to do". Presumably because you can't have two like vowels in a row in Na'vi, the expected *seii becomes seiyi. The y just breaks things up for ease of pronunciation.

bah of course, oe askxawng.

[roger]

it seems as though this script has stirred things up a  bit and it really strikes home to me just how little we know about this language.

Yes, just these few lines are a significant improvement in our coverage, which is pretty scary!

[Taronyu]

I didn't understand ... "seiyi" what does it mean?

Seiyi is the positive-affect form of si "to do". Presumably because you can't have two like vowels in a row in Na'vi, the expected *seii becomes seiyi. The y just breaks things up for ease of pronunciation.

We've not seen this anywhere else, though. It's an interesting rule, but groundless.

[Mirri]

Aylì'u na ayskxe mì te'lan "these words are like stones in my heart": note the absence of a verb. Does that mean na is a verb? Or is this simply a case of ellipsis?

I just want to make a general point to the discussion. Frommer has pointed out that he had Jake make 'deliberate' mistakes in his Na'vi to show he is not a native speaker, and Frommer also said he had rewritten dialog based on the actor's suggestions of Na'vi sentences that were grammatically incorrect, but were probably what a novice speaker thinks would be right.

So maaaybe Jake's dialog should be taken with a grain of salt

[Taronyu]

This is true. We don't know how incorrect these are. Which is why it shouldn't necessarily be given precedence over what we've done, and why I don't like the above glide insertion.

[roger]

I didn't understand ... "seiyi" what does it mean?

Seiyi is the positive-affect form of si "to do". Presumably because you can't have two like vowels in a row in Na'vi, the expected *seii becomes seiyi. The y just breaks things up for ease of pronunciation.

We've not seen this anywhere else, though. It's an interesting rule, but groundless.

Frommer's used it in emails: "Ngaru irayo seiyi oe"

[Lora Taw]

it seems as though this script has stirred things up a  bit and it really strikes home to me just how little we know about this language.

Yes, just these few lines are a significant improvement in our coverage, which is pretty scary!

i find it a bit exciting because although my level of lì'fya knowledge is not good enough to take part in this discussion. i enìoy the sense of exploration i get from reading about this. how were are basically pioneering our way into this new language that not many of us know a large amount of yet. its fascinating.