Conversational Verbs

Kìte'eyä Aungia · March 22, 2010, 09:13:32 PM

Just for fun, and because I wanted a good verb list to build my conversational vocabulary, I went through some lists of the most common verbs in the English language and combined them together to get about 160 verbs, 111 of which I was able to find canon translations for in Na'vi (mostly in Taronyu's excellent dictionary).

Spoiler

CSV file is attached and is formatted for iFlipr. I'll make one for jMemorize too if there is interest, just let me know.

Here's the list of verbs that I could not find translations for, minus the ones that should not exist in Na'vi. Thanks to omängum fra'uti for helping with this list.

Spoiler

EDIT: fixed typo in word list: "move (something) - 'ärip" -> "move (something) - 'ärìp"
EDIT: salew was in there twice

omängum fra'uti · March 22, 2010, 09:19:31 PM

Out of curiosity, did you note the 53 that you could not find a translation for? It might be a good insight into places we could look to fill vocabulary gaps next.

Kìte'eyä Aungia · March 22, 2010, 09:30:36 PM

In fact I did. Bolded are the verbs that I imagine shouldn't exist in Na'vi (e.g. no verb to buy because the Na'vi lack currency).

Spoiler

Feiane · March 22, 2010, 10:11:33 PM

For forgive, you could probably say txoa si or something similar.

In the movie there's the example of:
oeru txoa livu
Lit. Forgiveness be to me (I think?)

omängum fra'uti · March 22, 2010, 10:26:09 PM

Spoiler

Good show! Though a few more we don't need/won't exist, I've notated them in your list as well. And a few that I'm not sure would fit in with a tribal nature.

Kìte'eyä Aungia · March 23, 2010, 01:43:05 AM

Spoiler

Quote from: omängum fra'uti on March 22, 2010, 10:26:09 PM
Good show! Though a few more we don't need/won't exist, I've notated them in your list as well. And a few that I'm not sure would fit in with a tribal nature.

Thanks a lot for your help!

I'll update my original lists with your additions when I have a moment.

omängum fra'uti · March 23, 2010, 01:58:06 AM

watch In what sense? We have tìng nari, nìn, nari si...

QuoteWatch seems different to me. You order someone to watch a prisoner, you don't order them to look at a prisoner or to see a prisoner.

That would be "nari si" then.

Nari sivi foru fteke fo hivum
Watch them so they don't leave (Since we don't have a word "escape")

Kìte'eyä Aungia · March 23, 2010, 03:21:05 AM

Quote from: omängum fra'uti on March 23, 2010, 01:58:06 AM
watch In what sense? We have tìng nari, nìn, nari si...
Watch seems different to me. You order someone to watch a prisoner, you don't order them to look at a prisoner or to see a prisoner.

That would be "nari si" then.

Nari sivi foru fteke fo ke hivum
Watch them so they don't leave (Since we don't have a word "escape")

Ah. My mistake.

omängum fra'uti · March 23, 2010, 04:11:27 AM

It can be a bit confusing, but many of the "si" based verbs are a bit idiomatic. In this case I was basing that interpretation off of a dialog Frommer recited for the NY Times...

Nari s<ol>i ayoe fteke nìhawng l<iv>ok
We watched so that we did not get too close.

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä · March 26, 2010, 03:46:42 PM

Quote from: omängum fra'uti on March 23, 2010, 01:58:06 AM

Nari sivi foru fteke fo ke hivum
Watch them so they don't leave (Since we don't have a word "escape")

Why do you use the subjunctive form of si here?

omängum fra'uti · March 26, 2010, 03:50:21 PM

The subjunctive in this case is used because it is serving as a command/imperative.

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä · March 27, 2010, 01:58:37 AM

Quote from: omängum fra'uti on March 26, 2010, 03:50:21 PM
The subjunctive in this case is used because it is serving as a command/imperative.

So, if I had a sentence like: Oe-l p<imv>eng nga-ti ne kä t<er>aron, 'I told you to go hunting', the subjunctive would be in the word that was the command? The subjunctive mood is very confusing because it is used both for 'wishful' requests or thoughts, as well as commands. Is there some connection between these two classes of thought/action that defines 'subjunctive'?

omängum fra'uti · March 27, 2010, 02:56:10 AM

Not quite, you're putting the subjunctive in peng there, which unless you're saying someone should tell something, isn't the command.

But aside from that, there's a few other fundamental things with that sentence. You're trying to literally translate your English sentence.

When you are telling someone something, who you are telling isn't actually the accusiitve, what you are telling them is. So you need the dative there. In other words, ngar rather than ngat.

Second, the word "to" in English can mean many different things. Only one of them (Locational direction) can be translated as "ne". As a very rough rule of thumb, if the word that follows "to" in English is a noun, you might be able to use "ne". If not, you probably can't. In this case, "to" is merely part of the infinitive form of "go" - as in "to go". In Na'vi, the places where an infinitive like form would be used, the subjunctive gets used.

Which brings up the third point. Go is used a lot in English as a helper verb, esp with imperatives. But not so in Na'vi. In this case, the concept doesn't require any help in Na'vi, so the word doesn't get directly translated. Even if you did want to translate go, you can't just follow it with another verb like that. You'd have to say something like kä fte tivaron for "go hunt".

Finally, I believe Na'vi only does direct quotations, but don't quote me on that because I've only seen indirect references to that from a couple places.
Indirect: I told you to go hunting.
Direct: I told you, "Go hunt".

They say the same thing, but Na'vi only does the second. So your sentence would be...

Oe nga-ru p<ol>eng san t<iv>aron
I told you, "Hunt!"
or
Oe nga-ru p<ol>eng san k<iv>ä fte t<iv>aron
I told you, "Go to hunt!"

You'll notice in both cases what was told gets the subjunctive. What I'm saying now there isn't a command, but what I had said in the past and am now quoting myself on, is. So I used the subjunctive there.

For peng to take the subjunctive you'd probably be saying something like this...
P<iv>eng oe-ru futa pol ngaru p<ol>eng.
Tell me what he told you.

Quote from: `Eylan Ayfalulukanä on March 27, 2010, 01:58:37 AM
The subjunctive mood is very confusing because it is used both for 'wishful' requests or thoughts, as well as commands. Is there some connection between these two classes of thought/action that defines 'subjunctive'?

Yes, yes it is. But this is one of the simpler cases. If you're asking someone to do something, you certainly wish they would do it, right?

Other cases you must use the subjunctive...

After fte or fteke (So that / so that not), and with the subordinate of modal verbs such as new, zene, zenke and tsun.

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä · March 28, 2010, 01:44:01 AM

Irayo ma omängum fra'uti

But wow, do I have a lot to learn! I wish I could just go and spend a few years on Pandora...except as far as we know, it doesn't exist. Hopefully, a systematic way to keep this all straight will be worked out. This did help, though. But I think it will be a long time before I am writing anything but simple sentences.

Back on to the topic at hand: One of the 'shouldn't be in Na`vi' words marked above is 'drive'. 'Drive' is a word that would be quite useful to a hunter-gatherer society. Consider this: "The hunters on the ground will drive the yerik out of the bush so that the hunters on ikrans can shoot at them". Or, "The warriors on the flank will drive the tawtutes into our ambush so we can take them out".

Kìte'eyä Aungia · March 28, 2010, 01:52:52 AM

Quote from: `Eylan Ayfalulukanä on March 28, 2010, 01:44:01 AM
Back on to the topic at hand: One of the 'shouldn't be in Na`vi' words marked above is 'drive'. 'Drive' is a word that would be quite useful to a hunter-gatherer society. Consider this: "The hunters on the ground will drive the yerik out of the bush so that the hunters on ikrans can shoot at them". Or, "The warriors on the flank will drive the tawtutes into our ambush so we can take them out".

One of the limitations of the lists I used is that the verb was not specified (e.g. it didn't say whether it was "drive" as in "drive an animal from a bush" or "drive" as in "drive a golf ball"). I interpreted that one as being "drive" as in "drive a vehicle", which clearly should not be in the Na'vi language. The verb you're talking about ("drive" as in "drive something out of the bush") is probably approximated by fewi, to chase.

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä · March 28, 2010, 06:21:19 PM

Quote from: Kìte'eyä Aungia on March 28, 2010, 01:52:52 AM
Quote from: `Eylan Ayfalulukanä on March 28, 2010, 01:44:01 AM
Back on to the topic at hand: One of the 'shouldn't be in Na`vi' words marked above is 'drive'. 'Drive' is a word that would be quite useful to a hunter-gatherer society. Consider this: "The hunters on the ground will drive the yerik out of the bush so that the hunters on ikrans can shoot at them". Or, "The warriors on the flank will drive the tawtutes into our ambush so we can take them out".

One of the limitations of the lists I used is that the verb was not specified (e.g. it didn't say whether it was "drive" as in "drive an animal from a bush" or "drive" as in "drive a golf ball"). I interpreted that one as being "drive" as in "drive a vehicle", which clearly should not be in the Na'vi language. The verb you're talking about ("drive" as in "drive something out of the bush") is probably approximated by fewi, to chase.

True. But you could drive an arrow into a tree. Or into the side of a yerik. Or do the same with a spear. Depending on one's writing experience, unlikely words can have useful meanings. Consider the word 'manuafacture'. You wouldn't immediately consider this to be useful to the Na`vi (unless the RDA's satellite mapping somehow missed the Na`vi-run factory on the far side of Pandora, currently chrning out 10^7 copies of 'Avatar'

). However, consider this: "The group worked the night manufacturing new bows and arrows for the war party." Manufacturing doesn't have to involve factories or machines.

Kìte'eyä Aungia · March 28, 2010, 07:27:42 PM

@`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

I understand your point, but let me try and clear this up. Here's what I did to make my list:

1) Generate the initial list of the most common verbs in the English language.
2) Go through each word in the list and decide which verb the word referred to. For example, if the word was "buy", I had to decide whether it was talking about "to buy" as in "to pay money for", "to buy" as in "to accept an idea", etc.
3) Find the Na'vi verb that is the equivalent or approximation of the English one, if it exists.

Your issue seems to be that instead of collapsing the words down into one verb in 2) I should have broken them up and considered every dictionary definition for each word. The reason I didn't do that is I would have ended up with many, many verbs that are not commonly used in English. The verb "to buy" as in "to pay money for" is very common in English, but the verb "to buy" as in "to accept an idea" is not very common. Likewise, the verb "to drive" as in "to operate a vehicle" is common, but "to drive" as in "to drive a spear through something" is not.

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä · March 29, 2010, 01:38:48 AM

Quote from: Kìte'eyä Aungia on March 28, 2010, 07:27:42 PM

Your issue seems to be that instead of collapsing the words down into one verb in 2) I should have broken them up and considered every dictionary definition for each word. The reason I didn't do that is I would have ended up with many, many verbs that are not commonly used in English. The verb "to buy" as in "to pay money for" is very common in English, but the verb "to buy" as in "to accept an idea" is not very common. Likewise, the verb "to drive" as in "to operate a vehicle" is common, but "to drive" as in "to drive a spear through something" is not.

Interesting. I would consider your second idea for 'buy' to be an English idiom, and therefore something I wouldn't even really want a word for. OTOH, 'drive' in the sense we have been discussing is much more direct (and common). Incidentally, I otherwise agree with the vast majority of the rest of your 'picks'.

Kìte'eyä Aungia · March 29, 2010, 02:09:43 AM

Quote from: `Eylan Ayfalulukanä on March 29, 2010, 01:38:48 AM
Interesting. I would consider your second idea for 'buy' to be an English idiom, and therefore something I wouldn't even really want a word for.

I don't know about that. It has its own listing in the OED, and syntactically it functions like any other verb.

Speaker 1: That was a pretty extravagant story. Did he buy it?
Speaker 2: Yeah, he bought it all right.

Quote from: `Eylan Ayfalulukanä on March 29, 2010, 01:38:48 AM
OTOH, 'drive' in the sense we have been discussing is much more direct (and common). Incidentally, I otherwise agree with the vast majority of the rest of your 'picks'.

Good. Thanks for the input.

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä · March 29, 2010, 03:48:34 PM

Quote from: Kìte'eyä Aungia on March 29, 2010, 02:09:43 AM
I don't know about that. It has its own listing in the OED, and syntactically it functions like any other verb.

Speaker 1: That was a pretty extravagant story. Did he buy it?
Speaker 2: Yeah, he bought it all right.

Quote from: `Eylan Ayfalulukanä on March 29, 2010, 01:38:48 AM
OTOH, 'drive' in the sense we have been discussing is much more direct (and common). Incidentally, I otherwise agree with the vast majority of the rest of your 'picks'.
Good. Thanks for the input.

It isn't so much that the word itself is an idiom, but how it is being used. Idioms are generally phrases, at least in my experience.

One interesting possible use for 'buy' just occurred to me-- to be the same as 'redeem'. Example: "By giving Tsu`tey the details of the ambush, the tawtute bought back his life". (I'll have to see if 'redeem' on any of the lists. It is not in my somewhat out-of-date English-Na`vi dictionary.)