Discussion on plural of pum (Split from Re: Lenition of prefixes)

Started by Blue Elf, July 18, 2014, 01:54:12 PM

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Blue Elf

Quote from: Kemaweyan on July 17, 2014, 09:57:47 AM
Quote from: Blue Elf on July 17, 2014, 09:27:39 AM
Pum has no plural, so *tsayfum seems to be not allowed.

Has it been confirmed?
I found this example (in Czech grammar document), but I don't know how official it is and what is source:

Sunu nariru aysyulang alor, slä pum avä' lu lesar nìteng.
Nice flowers are pleasant to the eyes, but ugly ones are usefull too.
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
"Oe tasyätxaw ulte koren za'u oehu" (Limonádový Joe)


Tìtstewan

Quote from: first Na'viteri postpum 'possession, thing possessed' Pum is used as a "dummy noun" with the genitive pronouns to form "disjunctive possessives"—that is, words like "mine," "yours," "theirs." Example: Kelku ngeyä lu tsawl; pum oeyä lu hì'i. (Your house is large; mine is small.)
pum has no plural as it works as a "dummy" noun. "theirs" is technically plural :)

Quote from: Kemaweyan on July 18, 2014, 01:58:59 PM
Quote from: Blue Elf on July 18, 2014, 01:22:00 PM
"Every fifth day" works like adverb - it specifies time, so no a, but more serious issue is to attach fra- to the number. Is it allowed? Fra- is for nouns only, so I'd would use it differently.

Tsawke slu vawm fratrr amuve - Sun becomes dark every fifth day.

Opinions?

I completely agree.
Mllte nìwotx.

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Kemaweyan

Quote from: Tìtstewan on July 18, 2014, 02:10:02 PM
Quote from: first Na'viteri postpum 'possession, thing possessed' Pum is used as a "dummy noun" with the genitive pronouns to form "disjunctive possessives"—that is, words like "mine," "yours," "theirs." Example: Kelku ngeyä lu tsawl; pum oeyä lu hì'i. (Your house is large; mine is small.)
pum has no plural as it works as a "dummy" noun. "theirs" is technically plural :)

Why do you think that "dummy" noun could not be plural?
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Blue Elf

Quote from: Tìtstewan on July 18, 2014, 02:10:02 PM
Quote from: first Na'viteri postpum 'possession, thing possessed' Pum is used as a "dummy noun" with the genitive pronouns to form "disjunctive possessives"—that is, words like "mine," "yours," "theirs." Example: Kelku ngeyä lu tsawl; pum oeyä lu hì'i. (Your house is large; mine is small.)
pum has no plural as it works as a "dummy" noun. "theirs" is technically plural :)
This is old definition of pum, which was precised, so we can't guess about plural using current definition:

pum: [pum] PF pn. one (place-holder pronoun referring to a previously mentioned noun or pronoun)
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
"Oe tasyätxaw ulte koren za'u oehu" (Limonádový Joe)


Kemaweyan

btw, in English such "dummy" noun one could be plural (ones). Why pum can't? :-\
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Tìtstewan

Well, if pum is a place-holder, how it can take plural if a previous noun/pronoun is mentioned as plural and pum "place-hold" it?

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Blue Elf

Quote from: Tìtstewan on July 18, 2014, 02:23:45 PM
Well, if pum is a place-holder, how it can take plural if a previous noun/pronoun is mentioned as plural and pum "place-hold" it?
this explanation gives a lot of sense, IMHO. But there can be problem if first sentence uses singular, second one plural:

Sunu nariru fìsyulang alor, slä *ayfum avä' lu lesar nìteng.
This nice flower is pleasant to the eyes, but ugly ones are usefull too.

and we have problem, Houston.
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
"Oe tasyätxaw ulte koren za'u oehu" (Limonádový Joe)


Kemaweyan

Quote from: Tìtstewan on July 18, 2014, 02:23:45 PM
Well, if pum is a place-holder, how it can take plural if a previous noun/pronoun is mentioned as plural and pum "place-hold" it?

I don't understand what you mean. You mean that it's obvious from the context that pum means plural? But no. It could mean singular too. For example:

 Tsaysyulang ke sunu oer, slä fìpum nì'aw lor lu.
 I don't like those flowers, but this one only is beautiful.

 Tsaysyulang ke sunu oer, slä fayfum nì'aw lor lu.
 I don't like those flowers, but these ones only are beautiful.
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

Quote from: Blue Elf on July 18, 2014, 01:22:00 PM
QuoteVawm slu tsawke a framrrve trr. - The sun becomes dark every fifth day.
Interesting construction, but there are at least two problems.
"Every fifth day" works like adverb - it specifies time, so no a, but more serious issue is to attach fra- to the number. Is it allowed? Fra- is for nouns only, so I'd would use it differently.

Tsawke slu vawm fratrr amuve - Sun becomes dark every fifth day.

Opinions?

I see what you did here, and it makes sense. I used an a to make the whole phrase an attributive of tsawke. Not realizing that mrrve was an adjective is just a stupid mistake on my part.

As for pum, Tirea Aean and I talked at length about this word at AvatarMeet. (BTW, it was an extreme pleasure to finally meet him in person and talk about Na'vi with him for as many hours as we did!) The conclusion I have is that the word means 'one' kind of semantically. It can't be pluralizied as a word, but I suspect that if the original noun was plural, pum in effect becomes plural, as it represents the previously referenced noun. So, it would be confusing at minimum for pum to differ in number number from the referenced noun's number. And of course, there is no requirement that you have to use pum. You can always reuse the referenced noun. It might even be OK in this case to change the noun's number on the second usage.

Yawey ngahu!
pamrel si ro [email protected]

Blue Elf

This discussion was proposed to be used for current LEP submission. IMO we should to use it.
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
"Oe tasyätxaw ulte koren za'u oehu" (Limonádový Joe)