ftu vs. ta

[Tirea Aean]

Oel lu za'u ta ftu NSW, Australia

FTFY...

Oe za'u ta NSW is correct; za'u ftu means physical movement, za'u ta means origin
and probably <ol> infix should be used

Ftu means physical movement? In the dictionary it's listed as directional. Doesn't look like it has anything to do with physical movement. Also, why use <ol>? The sentence makes perfect sense without it.

-Txonä Rolyu

Za'u ftu means physical movement, not ftu itself. About <ol> - see Naviteri, sentence 22.

Ok, well I can see your case for <ol> but I'm still not getting how "za'u ftu" means physical movement. And perhaps we should continue this via PM. We're getting quite off-topic.

-Txonä Rolyu

it seems that many have come to the conclusion that ftu implies physical movement and ta does not. I would probably agree with that, given Frommerian usages of ftu and ta:

"ftu oe neto rikx ma skxawng"

"Nga z(ol)a'u ftu peseng"

he signs his letters with "ta...Pawl"

the Wiki canon has no mention of ftu or ta at all.

[Sireayä mokri]

Na'viteri has a little more on that:

By the way, notice that to say you come from somewhere, you use ftu, not ta. Ftu pairs with ne: they indicate directions from and to a place respectively.

[Tirea Aean]

Yeah, I thought that was the case. In my head I always had the associations:

za'u ftu, kä ne

now ta seems to be a tiny bit of a mystery. so far, have we seen more than just a letter signing usage?

I remember (from the Corpus):

oeri ta peyä fahew akewong ontu teya längu.
Aylì'ufa awngeyä 'eylanä a'ewan Markusì ta Ngalwey . . . 'Ivong Na'vi!
Lì'fyari leNa'vi 'Rrtamì, vay set 'almong a fra'u zera'u ta ngrrpongu.
Nìawnomum tolel oel ta ayhapxìtu lì'fyaolo'ä pxaya sìpawmit atxantsan a vay set ke 'oleyng

[Sireayä mokri]

It would be great if someone could ask for clarification on that during the upcoming meetup with Pawl.

[Blue Elf]

Well, some explanation: all this discussion comes from Czech translation of grammar leNa'vi, where we have written:
- "za'u ftu" is used when you want to say from which place you physically arrived
- "za'u ta" is used when you want to say where your origins are, where are you come from
I'm not sure, if English uses quote "I come from ..." in both meaning above; if yes, then confusion comes from this ambiguity (for me, text from Naviteri which Sireayä mokri quotes is not clear enough - because of possible amgibuity of "come from").

Examples from Tirea Aean regarding "ta" supports my thought about this.

[Tirea Aean]

I cant say I've ever seen Paul use ta with za'u. He's never said anything about that \in detail. and looking at that blog post about your origins, it says ftu there... not ta. The blog post seems to indicate that based on context and <ol>, za'u ftu is used for both your examples: origins and place you arrive from.

EDIT: derp

[Tanri]

I think that meaning of these words is pretty clear:

- ta speaks about source or origin of something/someone, and has nothing to do with movement of any kind, as correctly used in all Karyu Pawl examples noted above (even with za'u: "Lì'fyari leNa'vi 'Rrtamì, vay set 'almong a fra'u zera'u ta ngrrpongu").
- in the other hand, ftu (along with ne) means only movement ("...directions from and to a place respectively"), never origin or source.

As Blue Elf, i do not know exactly how Ìnglìsì distinguish between "i come from Paris" with meaning "i was born in Paris", from "i come from Paris" with meaning "i arrived from Paris".

[Tirea Aean]

so far, it seems that messages can be ta a person, and things can come ta a grassroots movement.

English only distinguishes from context and knowing the person you are talking to. also it can be phrased differently, depending on what they're saying.

I'm from Baltimore (is most always concerning about birthplace and such)

I'm coming from Baltimore (is most always concerning travel)

I come from Baltimore is somewhat ambiguous, but most people (over here at lest) will take that as concerning your birthplace/origins.

[Tanri]

I cant say I've ever seen Paul use ta with za'u. He's never said anything about that. and looking at that blog post about your origins, it says ftu there... not ta. The blog post seems to indicate that based on context and <ol>, za'u ftu is used for both your examples: origins and place you arrive from.

In this example (ftu with/without <ol>), i think that meaning of both is about movement and location, not origin.

The difference is that "oe za'u ftu" means "i arrived from", with the generical physical (locational) sense "sometime in the past i arrived here from".
However, "oe zola'u ftu" is more specific, not generical - "i arrived from" with the meaning "regarding this concrete event and time, i arrived here from".
This is the explanation that arised in my mind when i read naviteri examples.

so far, it seems that messages can be ta a person, and things can come ta a grassroots movement.

Yes, exactly, because in both of these we are speaking about origin, not about the movement or directions (in physical sense - like "from left", "from the top" etc...).

[Sireayä mokri]

So it seems we should choose between ftu and ta based on whether or not there's any sort of physical movement being involved.

[Tswusayona Tsamsiyu]

I cant say I've ever seen Paul use ta with za'u. He's never said anything about that. and looking at that blog post about your origins, it says ftu there... not ta. The blog post seems to indicate that based on context and <ol>, za'u ftu is used for both your examples: origins and place you arrive from.

In this example (ftu with/without <ol>), i think that meaning of both is about movement and location, not origin.

The difference is that "oe za'u ftu" means "i arrived from", with the generical physical (locational) sense "sometime in the past i arrived here from".
However, "oe zola'u ftu" is more specific, not generical - "i arrived from" with the meaning "regarding this concrete event and time, i arrived here from".
This is the explanation that arised in my mind when i read naviteri examples.

in this case, za'u is the same as zola'u (it's obviously not zera'u). the <ol> here is just either not important to mention or implied (which is both here I think).

[Tanri]

in this case, za'u is the same as zola'u (it's obviously not zera'u). the <ol> here is just either not important to mention or implied (which is both here I think).

I had this Naviteri example in my mind (from "Getting to Know You, Part 2"):
22.  Where are you from?
Nga z(ol)a'u ftu peseng / ftu tsengpe / pesengeftu / tsengpeftu ?
The choice between za'u and zola'u depends on the context. Zola'u is correct in all cases. However, if the question is a general one—"Where's your hometown?"—then za'u is sufficient. But if the intention is "Where have you come from (to attend this gathering)?" then zola'u is required.

[Kamean]

I had this Naviteri example in my mind (from "Getting to Know You, Part 2"):
22.  Where are you from?
Nga z(ol)a'u ftu peseng / ftu tsengpe / pesengeftu / tsengpeftu ?

I too.

[Tirea Aean]

okay so the <ol> thing is settled. and I think then so is the ftu vs. ta?

[Kamean]

okay so the <ol> thing is settled. and I think then so is the ftu vs. ta?

In my opinion, yes.

[Tirea Aean]

So the distinction betweet ftu and ta is physical movement, unless Paul specifies otherwise.

[Kamean]

Agree.

['Oma Tirea]

A whole thread around my little mistake

I thought right from the onset I should've known that ftu wasn't quite right...

[Txonä Unil Stä'nìyu Rolyusì]

So the distinction betweet ftu and ta is physical movement, unless Paul specifies otherwise.

Hmm...another question for me to ask him next month?

-Txonä Rolyu