Author Topic: "Have a nice X"  (Read 956 times)

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Offline VathRas

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"Have a nice X"
« on: March 02, 2010, 05:40:40 pm »
Kaltxì,

As in topic. I'd like to say wish, like "Have a nice X" where X ∈ {day, lunch, dance, movie, etc...}

Offline Txur’Itan

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Re: "Have a nice X"
« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2010, 06:32:04 pm »
Maybe?

Have a good dance

lìyevu              oeru/ngaru sìltsana                { srusew }
l<ìyev>u            oe/nga -ru sìltsan-a               { sr<us>ew }
be<FUT.SUBJUNCTIVE> 1/2-DAT    adj.-good-(Attributive) { X }
LIT: soon be to me/you good { X }


Where { X } is a participle or noun, possibly?
« Last Edit: March 02, 2010, 06:35:03 pm by Txur’Itan »
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Offline VathRas

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Re: "Have a nice X"
« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2010, 07:23:32 pm »
Well, I thinked of X as of noun. Edit: Uhm ok, participle like -ing too, I just haven't got it the first time i read your post :P

Yea, it does make sense with subjunctive, I missed <iv>.

Irayo seiyi ngaru oe :D
« Last Edit: March 02, 2010, 07:32:11 pm by VathRas »

Offline Na'viyä Tsamsiyu

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Re: "Have a nice X"
« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2010, 07:56:23 pm »
Maybe?

Have a good dance

lìyevu              oeru/ngaru sìltsana                { srusew }
l<ìyev>u            oe/nga -ru sìltsan-a               { sr<us>ew }
be<FUT.SUBJUNCTIVE> 1/2-DAT    adj.-good-(Attributive) { X }
LIT: soon be to me/you good { X }


Where { X } is a participle or noun, possibly?

i don't quite get what you guys are trying to say here. I know "have a nice X" is more of an english idiom, but the way it was translated is a bit confusing to me.

Could you clarafy please:( ??? :(

I guess its the participle thats throwing me off..
« Last Edit: March 02, 2010, 07:58:03 pm by Na'viyä Tsamsiyu »
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Offline Txur’Itan

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Re: "Have a nice X"
« Reply #4 on: March 02, 2010, 08:21:30 pm »
Maybe?

Have a good dance

lìyevu              oeru/ngaru sìltsana                { srusew }
l<ìyev>u            oe/nga -ru sìltsan-a               { sr<us>ew }
be<FUT.SUBJUNCTIVE> 1/2-DAT    adj.-good-(Attributive) { X }
LIT: soon be to me/you good { X }


Where { X } is a participle or noun, possibly?

i don't quite get what you guys are trying to say here. I know "have a nice X" is more of an english idiom, but the way it was translated is a bit confusing to me.

Could you clarafy please:( ??? :(

I guess its the participle thats throwing me off..

I am uncertain if Na'vi does this, but sometimes you can use participles as a noun in a Gerund.  But, I do not have any certainty how this works with Na'vi.  Which is why I said Maybe.
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Offline Na'viyä Tsamsiyu

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Re: "Have a nice X"
« Reply #5 on: March 02, 2010, 08:29:44 pm »
Ahh
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Offline VathRas

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Re: "Have a nice X"
« Reply #6 on: March 02, 2010, 08:44:56 pm »
Quote
Could you clarafy please:( Huh Sad
So, as Txur'Itan posted:
lìyevu ngaru sìltsana srusew
l<ì<ye>v>u nga-ru sìltsan-a sr<us>ew
lu+subjunctive+nearFuture nga+dative sìltsan+attribute srew+participle marker
be+hope+soon to-you good dance-ing
So lit.: I hope, it will be good dancing to you soon.

Quote
I guess its the participle thats throwing me off..
Participle it's just kinda noun, but made from a verb. In English it's -ing suffix like in:
to fall -> fall-ing (sky)
to roll -> roll-ing (stones)
to live -> liv-ing ("every living thing [...] that squats in a mud wants to [...] eat your eyes for jujubes" ;D)
« Last Edit: March 03, 2010, 08:57:08 am by VathRas »

Offline Nìkllas

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Re: "Have a nice X"
« Reply #7 on: March 02, 2010, 08:48:15 pm »
I think in this matter we could even drop the "be" part... since we have some examples of "Happy New Year" and "Happy Holidays" and they use the basic "good X for you".

So we could say "tìsreu asìltsan ngaru!" if we say we are talking of dancing, as going to a dance, ball, etc. Although the examples often use lefpom for the "happy..." so it could also be "tìsreu lefpom ngaru!" too.

Hope this helps.

Offline Nìkllas

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Re: "Have a nice X"
« Reply #8 on: March 02, 2010, 08:50:44 pm »
Participle it's just kinda noun, but made from a verb. In English it's -ing suffix like in:
to fall -> fall-ing (sky)
to roll -> roll-ing (stones)
to live -> liv-ing ("every living thing [...] that squats in a mud wants to [...] eat your eyes for jujubes" ;D)

I'm sorry, but you are mistaken... in all the examples you described the -ing is adjective not noun.
For instance: "A loving mother" there "loving" is an adjective. Also in the word "kerusey" means "dead" (i.e. not living).

Offline VathRas

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Re: "Have a nice X"
« Reply #9 on: March 02, 2010, 09:09:07 pm »
OMG you're right, what I have done?! ??? I'm terrible sorry...
but here I have other to expiate ;D:
- to be -> being (like "human being")
- to feel -> feeling (like "critters have feelings")
- to fight -> fighting (like "axe fighting" (rpg skill))
« Last Edit: March 02, 2010, 09:12:51 pm by VathRas »

Offline Na'viyä Tsamsiyu

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Re: "Have a nice X"
« Reply #10 on: March 03, 2010, 03:09:51 pm »
I think my (maybe our) confusion lies within this (bolded):

Maybe?

Have a good dance

lìyevu              oeru/ngaru sìltsana                { srusew }
l<ìyev>u            oe/nga -ru sìltsan-a               { sr<us>ew }
be<FUT.SUBJUNCTIVE> 1/2-DAT    adj.-good-(Attributive) { X }
LIT: soon be to me/you good { X }


Where { X } is a participle or noun, possibly?


I understand what the participle is used for, but the translation seems off to me because soon be -to me/you good (in this case dance) dancing ???

If your saying have a good "verb" it makes more sense to make it a noun form tìsrew because making it an adjective with the <us>, to me makes no sense because you just modified an adjective with another derived adjective:sìltsana srusew ( and, lol, good rambling run-on sentence there :) ). sìltsana srusew Also, when reading up on it, it looks like you need an ATTR marker (-a-) with the derived <us> verb, finally making it sìltsana a-srusew which looks like a big no-no. (but not as relevent to this situation now)

Also, the <ìyev> seems a little much for the situation, because these idiomodic statements are usually salutations, and the last thing you say to someone.
"bye! Have a good day" or "have a  good dance!"

So the tense is more implied here than anything else. Though i'm not sure if the subjunctive should be kept, probably so, as your stating more of a wish for that person, which brings us to this:

I think in this matter we could even drop the "be" part... since we have some examples of "Happy New Year" and "Happy Holidays" and they use the basic "good X for you".

So we could say "tìsrew asìltsan ngaru!" if we say we are talking of dancing, as going to a dance, ball, etc. Although the examples often use lefpom for the "happy..." so it could also be "tìsrew lefpom ngaru!" too.

Hope this helps.

Here, i think it would be the more logical and simpler way to say things, but since its more or a wish, the lu may not want to be dropped because of the <iv> infix it carries, but IDK. The (or my, prob wrong) final sentence might be more along the lines of:

Livu Ngar(u) Sìltsana Tìsrew

or

Ngar(u) Sìltsana Tìsrew


or whatever word order floats your boat. :)


Lastly, this brings me to "have a good day"

or

Where the thing your "having" is already a noun, like trr.
My idea follows the above

Sìltsana trr ngaru

It looks right to me now but we need some more input. Please help.

-Irayo



« Last Edit: March 03, 2010, 03:29:01 pm by Na'viyä Tsamsiyu »
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Offline Txur’Itan

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Re: "Have a nice X"
« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2010, 01:20:21 am »
Dropping or keping BE+n.-DAT (LU+n.-ru) was explained as a method of de-emphasis/emphasis, according to Frommer's response to the Community Idiom construction thread.  Doing BE+n.-DAT (LU oe/nga-ru) sìltsana { X } this was just one example of the construction of Have a nice { X } where you can replace { X } with pretty much any noun.

<ìyev> - is not "good by" it is future subjunctive (might/possibly soon).  "Have a nice day" is a sort of suggestion for the future of the day so <ìyev> seems to fit better than just subjunctive <iv> by itself which probably is the present tense uncertainty.

k<ìyev>ame is kame (understanding spiritually seeing), and in a way adding <ìyev> only really suggest that you may or might do that in the near future.  So it more equates to "Might soon Spiritually see again" with the subject and object dropped to exclude the reference to the recipient, leaving only the verb in the first clause of the last sentence in his Open Letter Response ~ Kìevame ulte Eywa ngahu.

Oel Ngati k<ìyev>ame Is most likely a complete sentence in Na'vi, for which it seems Paul Frommer created a way to short hand by only saying k<ìyev>ame on its own.

<US> changes verbs into participle not not adjective or noun, the gerund noun case is theoretical, and implicit not explicit, tì- seems explicit, but I can not say for certain that I know for sure that Paul Frommer confirmed this grammar item.  Which brings me to my next thought...  

tì- - if it does the job purported then yes, I tend to not use items still listed in the dictionary as coming from wikipedia, probably not a problem in this case because of the attested word from Frommer tìyawne.  Creating a noun of srew with the construction tìsrew is probably better, but from what Frommer said about not extracting tì- from tìyawne almost says in my mind that that tì- may not be valid.  This leaves me confused at this point.  I need to check up on this a bit to update my understanding of the facts.

Also, I think that not all idioms are salutations.

"Due to" means because and it is an English idiom, a peculiar one at that.
De nada - "Of nothing" in Spanish equivalently means "you are welcome" (or "no thanks is needed from you to be given to me for what I have done."), which in of itself is an idiomatic response to someone saying thank you.


Lìyevu ngar(u) sìltsana tìsrew ~ LIT: Might soon Be to you good dance
Lìyevu ngar(u) sìltsana tìmuntxa ~ LIT: Might soon Be to you good mating
Lìyevu ngar(u) sìltsana trr ~ LIT: Might soon Be to you good day
Lìyevu ngar(u) sìltsana txon ~ LIT: Might soon be to you good night
Lìyevu ngar(u) sìltsana Uniltaron ~ LIT: Might soon be to you good dream hunt
« Last Edit: March 04, 2010, 01:23:39 am by Txur’Itan »
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Offline Nìkllas

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Re: "Have a nice X"
« Reply #12 on: March 04, 2010, 01:08:48 pm »
Good post. I'm with you, Txur'Itan in most of what you say and thanks also to Na'viyä Tsamsiyu.

...in his Open Letter Response ~ Kìevame ulte Eywa ngahu.

Oel Ngati k<ìyev>ame Is most likely a complete sentence in Na'vi, for which it seems Paul Frommer created a way to short hand by only saying k<ìyev>ame on its own.

Maybe just a typo? That could also be the case.

tì- - if it does the job purported then yes, I tend to not use items still listed in the dictionary as coming from wikipedia, probably not a problem in this case because of the attested word from Frommer tìyawne.  Creating a noun of srew with the construction tìsrew is probably better, but from what Frommer said about not extracting tì- from tìyawne almost says in my mind that that tì- may not be valid.  This leaves me confused at this point.  I need to check up on this a bit to update my understanding of the facts.

What did Frommer said in regards to the tì-, I would like to know because I couldn't find it and sounds interesting. I thought of it as a noun-maker prefix, maybe an abstract noun maker.

Also, I think that not all idioms are salutations.

"Due to" means because and it is an English idiom, a peculiar one at that.
De nada - "Of nothing" in Spanish equivalently means "you are welcome" (or "no thanks is needed from you to be given to me for what I have done."), which in of itself is an idiomatic response to someone saying thank you.

True, completely with you here, even "Gracias" is a very interesting idiom.


Lìyevu ngar(u) sìltsana tìsrew ~ LIT: Might soon Be to you good dance
Lìyevu ngar(u) sìltsana tìmuntxa ~ LIT: Might soon Be to you good mating
Lìyevu ngar(u) sìltsana trr ~ LIT: Might soon Be to you good day
Lìyevu ngar(u) sìltsana txon ~ LIT: Might soon be to you good night
Lìyevu ngar(u) sìltsana Uniltaron ~ LIT: Might soon be to you good dream hunt


One last little thing I would like to add is that I'm starting to think that probably in this kind of cases the Na'vi would use a derivate from "fpom" rather than "sìltsan (good)". The idea of "a good dance" described by this word is a conception we can have as we use it in English, Spanish and most languages. But a reversed example happens in Finnish, for example. There, they have hyvä "good" and onnellinen "happy", but when saying "Happy New Year!" or "Happy Easter" or even "Happy Birthday" they will tend to use "hyvää" rather than a derivate from "onnellinen". The derivates from "onnellinen" can be used and understood, but my point is that in Na'vi thinking and conceptions about language maybe "fpom" comes first as their option rather than "sìltsan" in this kind of cases, maybe "sìltsan" has other conceptions associated to it, not yet stablished.

I hope I didn't obscured the matter...

Offline Txur’Itan

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Re: "Have a nice X"
« Reply #13 on: March 04, 2010, 05:12:25 pm »

tì- - if it does the job purported then yes, I tend to not use items still listed in the dictionary as coming from wikipedia, probably not a problem in this case because of the attested word from Frommer tìyawne.  Creating a noun of srew with the construction tìsrew is probably better, but from what Frommer said about not extracting tì- from tìyawne almost says in my mind that that tì- may not be valid.  This leaves me confused at this point.  I need to check up on this a bit to update my understanding of the facts.

What did Frommer said in regards to the tì-, I would like to know because I couldn't find it and sounds interesting. I thought of it as a noun-maker prefix, maybe an abstract noun maker.

Something Prrton posted when he spoke to Frommer about tìyawne (beloved), it threw me off when I read it.  It would be worth clairifying the why on it.  I am not sure I fully understood the reasoning myself, and the fact that we still only have the wikipedia reference for it in the dictionary leaves me unauthoritatively skeptical on its use for the moment.

One last little thing I would like to add is that I'm starting to think that probably in this kind of cases the Na'vi would use a derivative from "fpom" rather than "sìltsan (good)". The idea of "a good dance" described by this word is a conception we can have as we use it in English, Spanish and most languages. But a reversed example happens in Finnish, for example. There, they have hyvä "good" and onnellinen "happy", but when saying "Happy New Year!" or "Happy Easter" or even "Happy Birthday" they will tend to use "hyvää" rather than a derivative from "onnellinen". The derivatives from "onnellinen" can be used and understood, but my point is that in Na'vi thinking and conceptions about language maybe "fpom" comes first as their option rather than "sìltsan" in this kind of cases, maybe "sìltsan" has other conceptions associated to it, not yet established.

I hope I didn't obscured the matter...

Fpom could be a good substitute, but frommer added le- prefix when he used it as an adjective to make lefpom

Lìyevu ngar(u) lefpoma tìsrew
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Offline Na'viyä Tsamsiyu

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Re: "Have a nice X"
« Reply #14 on: March 05, 2010, 09:28:01 am »
Quote
Quote from: Txur’Itan on March 04, 2010, 12:20:21 AM
tì- - if it does the job purported then yes, I tend to not use items still listed in the dictionary as coming from wikipedia, probably not a problem in this case because of the attested word from Frommer tìyawne.  Creating a noun of srew with the construction tìsrew is probably better, but from what Frommer said about not extracting tì- from tìyawne almost says in my mind that that tì- may not be valid.  This leaves me confused at this point.  I need to check up on this a bit to update my understanding of the facts.

What did Frommer said in regards to the tì-, I would like to know because I couldn't find it and sounds interesting. I thought of it as a noun-maker prefix, maybe an abstract noun maker.

Something Prrton posted when he spoke to Frommer about tìyawne (beloved), it threw me off when I read it.  It would be worth clairifying the why on it.  I am not sure I fully understood the reasoning myself, and the fact that we still only have the wikipedia reference for it in the dictionary leaves me unauthoritatively skeptical on its use for the moment


I remember that post and im pretty sure that they were debating weather or not the word yawne could be extracted from tìyawne and therefore be used as an adjective (or something) other than just a noun, then leading to the heated debate over the "i love you" phrase, which lead to the dative construction ultimately.

And from Taronyu talking to Frommer so frequently i think he woulda mentioned something about it by now so honestly i wouldnt worry.
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