I lost myself...

[Alyara Arati]

If 'ia conveys losing the self spiritually in a good way, as the thread "'ia and agape" would suggest, how would one express losing oneself negatively?

Tamatep oel tireafya'oti oeyä.
I lost track of my spiritual path.

Or is there a better way?

[`Eylan Ayfalulukanä]

Very good question! `ia by itself does not imply a positive or negative sense. It is the sense of the discussion that has been in the `ia and agape thread that this is a positive thing (and it certainly is for Christian (and other religions) meditation!). But it doesn't have to be.

You could reinforce the positive sense of `ia by using the laudative infix <ei>, as in `ieia. Conversely, you can give `ia a negative sense by using the pejorative infix <äng>, as in `iänga (This becomes interesting because the end of the word becomes 'nga'). Beyond that, it is how you use the word in a sentence.

[Sireayä mokri]

I like `Eylan Ayfalulukanä's idea about <ei>/<äng> infixes in 'ia, but in this example:

I lost track of my spiritual path.

I'd go with tamatängep because 'ia is intransitive.

Also, for I lost myself, oe täpamatängep seems good to me.

[`Eylan Ayfalulukanä]

Just because `ia is intransitive doesn't mean that it can't be used for its intended meaning. Although I can see now that its being intransitive limits your choices.

OTOH, tatep has the problem that it isn't exactly spiritual in its meaning. From another thread, posted long time ago, tatep is more about losing some sort of object, rather than losing oneself. In fact, the term is really kind of a military term, from what I recall of that discussion. In any case, additional verbiage would be needed to add the spiritual dimension.

I have a short lunch hour today. Otherwise, I would try and cook up some sentences to use both of these terms, in the contexts we are discussing here.

[Alyara Arati]

Just because `ia is intransitive doesn't mean that it can't be used for its intended meaning. Although I can see now that its being intransitive limits your choices.

OTOH, tatep has the problem that it isn't exactly spiritual in its meaning. From another thread, posted long time ago, tatep is more about losing some sort of object, rather than losing oneself.

OK, so I had an idea sparked by your blue ray player's behavior that you mentioned under the "fmi!" thread

when I went to shut the machine off, the front panel display said "see you".

Kame does have a spiritual quality and doesn't seem to be as open to interpretation as 'ia.  What about:

Ke tsun käpivamänge oe.
I cannot See myself (and I'm unhappy about that).

Or something?
Too much rewording to avoid complications?

[`Eylan Ayfalulukanä]

Both `ia and kame are clearly terms to be understood in the spiritual sense.
Tatep is not. I'm not even sure if this term can be used in a spiritual sense. But if it can be, it must be indicated as such, as the definition does not include this as a normal part of the understanding of this word.

Ke tsun käpivamänge oe - I cannot See myself (and I'm unhappy about that).

I believe that is spot-on.

[Tirea Aean]

ke tsun käpivamänge oe

grammatically correct. IMO stylistically WEIRD.

[Sireayä mokri]

OTOH, tatep has the problem that it isn't exactly spiritual in its meaning.

I think the meaning would be clear in this context.

ke tsun käpivamänge oe

grammatically correct. IMO stylistically WEIRD.

Agree on this.

[Alyara Arati]

OK, I really liked the conciseness of

oe täpamatängep

, but I was concerned that the context wouldn't be clear.  I had fiddled around with 'ia in phrases like:

oe 'almiänga nefya ronsem oeyä
I had lost myself inside my mind

but wasn't crazy about that either.  If using kame is too weird, what would you suggest?  Irayo for all the thought you've put into this.
Alyara Arati

[`Eylan Ayfalulukanä]

OK, I really liked the conciseness of

oe täpamatängep

, but I was concerned that the context wouldn't be clear.  I had fiddled around with 'ia in phrases like:

oe 'almiänga nefya ronsem oeyä
I had lost myself inside my mind

but wasn't crazy about that either.  If using kame is too weird, what would you suggest?  Irayo for all the thought you've put into this.
Alyara Arati

First of all, ma Alyara Arati, I think what might have been meant here when they said that this was 'stylistically weird', is the word order:

Ke tsun käpivamänge oe

This to me, anyway, seems a little clearer, and is definitely more 'Na`vi-ish':

Ke tsun oe käpivamänge

Placing the subject between a modal verb and its target is OK, and common in K. Pawl's writings.

Now, back to what you just posted:

oe 'almiänga nefya ronsem oeyä

This is pretty good, except that nefya is not a recognized word (that I can find). I can see how you might have come up with this word: ne- (adp. 'in') + fya (borrowed from fya`o 'path'). However, there is a word for 'inside', namely mìfa, which is an adverb. A little word rearranging to create an attributive phrase for oe and you end up up with:

`almiänga oe a mìfa ronsem oeyä

As far as `ia being the right verb here depends on the context of how you are using this sentence. If you mean this in the sense of a bad dream or vision, I think `ia is a good verb to use here. But if you are using this as a kind of idiom to express the idea of confusion, etc. then tatep might be a better choice. I can't immediately think of a reason one would use kame here.

[Alyara Arati]

As far as `ia being the right verb here depends on the context of how you are using this sentence. If you mean this in the sense of a bad dream or vision, I think `ia is a good verb to use here. But if you are using this as a kind of idiom to express the idea of confusion, etc. then tatep might be a better choice. I can't immediately think of a reason one would use kame here.

Irayo once again!  This whole discussion has been quite illuminating for me.

[Tirea Aean]

Spoiler

OK, I really liked the conciseness of

oe täpamatängep

, but I was concerned that the context wouldn't be clear.  I had fiddled around with 'ia in phrases like:

oe 'almiänga nefya ronsem oeyä
I had lost myself inside my mind

but wasn't crazy about that either.  If using kame is too weird, what would you suggest?  Irayo for all the thought you've put into this.
Alyara Arati

First of all, ma Alyara Arati, I think what might have been meant here when they said that this was 'stylistically weird', is the word order:

Ke tsun käpivamänge oe

This to me, anyway, seems a little clearer, and is definitely more 'Na`vi-ish':

Ke tsun oe käpivamänge

Placing the subject between a modal verb and its target is OK, and common in K. Pawl's writings.

No. The word order was just fine. I did not mean at all that the word order was weird. you should be able to mix the word order of this in any conceivable way and still have it be Na'vi and correct. I was just saying that is just a weird way to say it and a tad wordy imo. tsaria ke lamu law oe tsap'alute si.

Now, back to what you just posted:

oe 'almiängia nefya ronsem oeyä

This is pretty good, except that nefya is not a recognized word (that I can find). I can see how you might have come up with this word: ne- (adp. 'in') + fya (borrowed from fya`o 'path'). However, there is a word for 'inside', namely mìfa, which is an adverb. A little word rearranging to create an attributive phrase for oe and you end up up with:

`almiängia oe a mìfa ronsem oeyä

nefya is not a word. I think the word is nemfa, an ADP. mìfa is for stuff like I go inside. that's modifying the verb. nemfa is a locative thing. inside my mind, I am losing myself. ergo

'almiängia oe nemfa ronsem oeyä

As far as `ia being the right verb here depends on the context of how you are using this sentence. If you mean this in the sense of a bad dream or vision, I think `ia is a good verb to use here. But if you are using this as a kind of idiom to express the idea of confusion, etc. then tatep might be a better choice. I can't immediately think of a reason one would use kame here.

agreed. tho i gotta say that

'almiängia oe nemfa ronsem oeyä

basicall what the above is saying to me is: inside my mind, i lost my soul  / 

really, going back to the origin of the topic at hand, I would condone using simply

'oliängia oe.

to say something like

spiritually, I lost myself...

[`Eylan Ayfalulukanä]

kawnga `Eylan nang Never thought of nemfa-, even though I am working on memorizing all the adpositions right now.

[Alyara Arati]

tho i gotta say that

'almiängia oe nemfa ronsem oeyä

basicall what the above is saying to me is: inside my mind, i lost my soul  / 

really, going back to the origin of the topic at hand, I would condone using simply

'oliängia oe.

to say something like

spiritually, I lost myself...

This is very powerful.  May I use it?  It's ok, I'm working on a poem, and it doesn't stay all  / .

btw I was thinking of nemfa, I just misremembered my adposition there.