Nosce te ipsum.

Diegetes · February 22, 2010, 02:08:14 PM

I want to translate inscription from Apollo's Delphic Sanctuary. In Greek it is gnōthi seautón (know thyself), Latin nosce te ipsum. I think it should be nga omäpum (käpame?).

Firstly, it seemed obvious to me to use ergative but I'm not sure for all now. I found this topic, Karyu Pawl don't use this case. I need help, got confused...

wm.annis · February 22, 2010, 03:58:50 PM

Quote from: Diegetes on February 22, 2010, 02:08:14 PM
I want to translate inscription from Apollo's Delphic Sanctuary. In Greek it is gnōthi seautón (know thyself), Latin nosce te ipse. I think it should be nga omäpum (käpame?).

The location of the infixes is determined by syllable. Since reflexive infix goes into "pre-first position" (Frommer's terms) that means it must go before the vowel of the next-to-last syllable of o.mum — it goes before o. So äpomum.

Because it is a command, you don't need to state the subject pronoun overtly. If you want to be very clear that it is a command, you could add the ‹iv› infix, giving the hefty äpivomum. However, you may use the subject pronoun if you want. Since reflexives are intransitive, it will be nga, not ngal. Finally, it's sort of a solemn statement, so you could use the honorific pronoun ngenga.

Na'rìghawnu · February 23, 2010, 08:38:32 AM

I don't want to nit-pick, but in Latin it's "Nosce te ipsum" (ipsum is accusative of ipse).

Diegetes · February 23, 2010, 01:55:27 PM

O di immortales, spero neminem ex universitate mea umquam hunc lapsum vidisse... I shouldn't have written that after exhausting day... I have corrected it.

QuoteThe location of the infixes is determined by syllable. Since reflexive infix goes into "pre-first position" (Frommer's terms) that means it must go before the vowel of the next-to-last syllable of o.mum — it goes before o. So äpomum.

Irayo for explanation. That statement, pre-first position, wasn't clear enough for me but I catch it now.

QuoteBecause it is a command, you don't need to state the subject pronoun overtly. If you want to be very clear that it is a command, you could add the ‹iv› infix, giving the hefty äpivomum. However, you may use the subject pronoun if you want. Since reflexives are intransitive, it will be nga, not ngal. Finally, it's sort of a solemn statement, so you could use the honorific pronoun ngenga.

I dindn't want to use subjunctive mood. It is not nececessary, am I right? BTW, I like the idea of using honorific pronoun. So I would choose ngenga äpomum.

omängum fra'uti · February 23, 2010, 02:01:20 PM

You don't have to include the subjunctive in there no, but it's more polite to. So using the honorific pronoun followed by an imperative like construct without the subjunctive is a bit contrasting.

Kì'eyawn · February 23, 2010, 05:35:30 PM

If you're going to use the honorific form of the pronoun, you should also use the formal infix <uy>, which goes in second position. This would give you:

Ngenga äpomuyum

omängum fra'uti · February 23, 2010, 05:45:57 PM

I wouldn't say you always should, it depends on what you are trying to convey. The way I imagine it to be, the pronoun forms are something like respectful forms. Something you might say if you are showing respect, being deferential, or being formal. Uses that may crop up in day to day use.

The <uy> infix is above that... Something you would say in ceremonies, formal introductions, and the like. But not something typical to appear in day to day speech.

But that is all my own speculation, I could be way off on it. Part of that is from Norm's love of the deferential pronouns and Grace reacting by pointing out he is being "formal", while he was not actually using the ceremonial <uy> infix. When Jake was becoming part of the Na'vi, then both the pronouns and infix came into play, but that truly was a ceremonial use.

Kì'eyawn · February 24, 2010, 07:55:13 AM

I agree with you completely, ma tsmukan. But considering the original quote being translated here was (i believe) inscribed at the entrance to the temple that housed the Oracle at Delphi (history buffs, correct me if i'm wrong), that would seem to me to be solemn/ceremonial enough to warrant the full treatment.

But, then again, the Na'vi don't write, so there's certainly no precedent either way

Diegetes · February 24, 2010, 03:29:45 PM

Quotehere was (i believe) inscribed at the entrance to the temple that housed the Oracle at Delphi (history buffs, correct me if i'm wrong)

More or less. It was written above the entrance to the whole complex with theatre, stadium, treasuries and the temple. Oh, I've forgotten, it appears in the kitchen of oracle in the Matrix.

Alright, let's move to the Na'vi things.

QuoteYou don't have to include the subjunctive in there no, but it's more polite to. So using the honorific pronoun followed by an imperative like construct without the subjunctive is a bit contrasting.

Hmmm, I can feel the distinction between these moods you pointed out. It's really logical. However I would like you to tell me whether we should always put subjunctive after this specific pronoun? Do we have a rule that tells us about it or this is just your feeling which I certainly share with you now.
What about formal infix. I think omängum fra'uti has well explained the problem with a number of deferential markers. For me these words are rather kind exhortation what convinces me more that here we should use subjunctive, not firm imperative. So the final version is ngenga äpivomum.