Author Topic: Infixes  (Read 854 times)

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Offline Kekerusey

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Infixes
« on: June 28, 2010, 07:31:07 am »
OK, though I still suck at distinguishing nouns from verbs (I know what they are I just forget when I'm deep in Na'vi) I think I now have a (bit of) a handle on infix positions so please can someone tell me if I have this right? :)

As I understand it the infix positions are:

Position 1: penultimate (last but one) syllable immediately before the vowel/s ... used for tense
Position 2: last syllable immediately before the vowel/s. ... used for mood.

So ... (for me) the easy (but non-intuitive) way is to visualise the word and put the position markers in at the last and penultimate syllables before the vowels so:

Taron (hunt)   t<1>ar<2>on
Lu (is/am/be)   l<1><2>u
Omum (know)   <1>om<2>um

Where:

<1>:   tense infixes
<2>:   mood infixes

So to say I hunted (recent past tense) but didn't like it I would put "ìm" (recent past tense) in the first infix position and "äng" (ugh!) in the second to create t<ìm>ar<äng>on, yes?

I also noted, from “Na'vi In A Nutshell”, that most (but not all) of the three letter infixes appear to be modified combinations of the  two letter ones ... well kinda!

Have I got this anywhere near right?

Keke
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Offline wm.annis

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Re: Infixes
« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2010, 07:44:58 am »
Have I got this anywhere near right?

Almost exactly.  I'd only add two things.

First, "mood" means something very particular in linguistics, and ‹ei› and ‹äng› don't count.  Most people call these "affect" infixes, and that's probably a better way to go.  The subjunctive is a mood, and that infix also goes into slot 1.

Second, just for completeness, position 1 contains the infixes not just for tense, but also aspect and mood (sometimes shortened TAM for the whole catastrophe).
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Offline 'Oma Tirea

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Re: Infixes
« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2010, 08:24:46 am »
What about the <0> infix position for <us>, <awn>, <äp>, and <eyk>?

Have I got this anywhere near right?

First, "mood" means something very particular in linguistics, and ‹ei› and ‹äng› don't count.  Most people call these "affect" infixes, and that's probably a better way to go.

How did those get to be called "affect" infixes?  I thought those were the laudative and pejorative.  As far as we have seen, there is no affective infix that compares with <eyk> (ever remember the ol' drills for cause and affect?).

...or maybe I am misunderstanding something....
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Offline wm.annis

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Re: Infixes
« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2010, 11:43:08 am »
How did those get to be called "affect" infixes?  I thought those were the laudative and pejorative.

Those are the names of individual infixes for that position (of which there are two more, the honorific/ceremonial ‹uy› and suppositional ‹ats›).  Taken together as a class, "affect infix" is a fine name.

Quote
As far as we have seen, there is no affective infix that compares with <eyk>

I'm not sure what you're asking here.  What Frommer calls the "pre-first" position is for participles and changes to transitivity.
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Offline omängum fra'uti

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Re: Infixes
« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2010, 02:46:38 pm »
How did those get to be called "affect" infixes?  I thought those were the laudative and pejorative.  As far as we have seen, there is no affective infix that compares with <eyk> (ever remember the ol' drills for cause and affect?).

...or maybe I am misunderstanding something....
You're thinking "effect" not "affect".  They are, in fact, different words with different meanings.
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Offline `Eylan Ayfalulukanä

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Re: Infixes
« Reply #5 on: June 28, 2010, 02:55:22 pm »
How did those get to be called "affect" infixes?  I thought those were the laudative and pejorative.

Those are the names of individual infixes for that position (of which there are two more, the honorific/ceremonial ‹uy› and suppositional ‹ats›).  Taken together as a class, "affect infix" is a fine name.

Quote
As far as we have seen, there is no affective infix that compares with <eyk>

I'm not sure what you're asking here.  What Frommer calls the "pre-first" position is for participles and changes to transitivity.

To explain what Wm. Annis was saying, and to perhaps answer your question better, I'll add this.

The reason there is no affective affix that compares with <eyk> is because <eyk> is not 'affective'. It is commonly called the 'causative infix', although I am sure there is an obscure linguistic term for it. It, as Wm. Annis also mentioned, is where the paticiple infixes <us> and <awn>. <eyk> and <äp> also change transitivity, but they do additional things.

The pre-first position is a separate infix position, immediately prior to the first. Thus, you have t<0><1>ar<2>on. There are different ways of describing these infix positions (I use 1A, 1B and 2), but 0,1,2 is the most common. Thus, if you wanted to use <eyk>, it would go in position 0. The infixes in the two first position slots never contract into  a shorter, single infix. To use the other pre-first infix, the reflexive infix <äp>, along with other infixes, you could get some really interesting words. Take täpìmarängon, for instance. Used in a short sentence oe täpìmarängon means 'I just hunted myself and did not like it at all'  ;)

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Offline 'Oma Tirea

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Re: Infixes
« Reply #6 on: June 28, 2010, 07:04:14 pm »
How did those get to be called "affect" infixes?  I thought those were the laudative and pejorative.  As far as we have seen, there is no affective infix that compares with <eyk> (ever remember the ol' drills for cause and affect?).

...or maybe I am misunderstanding something....
You're thinking "effect" not "affect".  They are, in fact, different words with different meanings.

Srane.  I was wondering why Na'vi doesn't (yet) have an infix for that yet....
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Offline tsmukan

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Re: Infixes
« Reply #7 on: January 23, 2011, 05:50:39 am »
Hrm... I'm puzzled by these syllable positions, isn't "Position 2" penultimate, and not "Position 1" as stated earlier.. (i suck at this so please explain if i'm wrong)



---><8---

Position 1: penultimate (last but one) syllable immediately before the vowel/s ... used for tense
Position 2: last syllable immediately before the vowel/s. ... used for mood.

So ... (for me) the easy (but non-intuitive) way is to visualise the word and put the position markers in at the last and penultimate syllables before the vowels so:

Taron (hunt)   t<1>ar<2>on
Lu (is/am/be)   l<1><2>u
Omum (know)   <1>om<2>um

Offline `Eylan Ayfalulukanä

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Re: Infixes
« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2011, 04:39:52 pm »
Hrm... I'm puzzled by these syllable positions, isn't "Position 2" penultimate, and not "Position 1" as stated earlier.. (i suck at this so please explain if i'm wrong)



---><8---

Position 1: penultimate (last but one) syllable immediately before the vowel/s ... used for tense
Position 2: last syllable immediately before the vowel/s. ... used for mood.

So ... (for me) the easy (but non-intuitive) way is to visualise the word and put the position markers in at the last and penultimate syllables before the vowels so:

Taron (hunt)   t<1>ar<2>on
Lu (is/am/be)   l<1><2>u
Omum (know)   <1>om<2>um

First of all, be careful, because you 'necroposted' in an old thread. Things have changed a little since this thread was last active. Although you asked a topical question here, it would have been better if you had started a new thread.

That said, 'penultimate' means 'second to last'. I had this drilled into me in the days of the use of klystron tubes for TV transmitters. There tubes used 4 or 5 RF cavities, with increasing levels of energy in each cavity. The penultimate, or 'cavity before the output cavity' had to be tuned differently than the other cavities. Failure to tune ir right would quickly destroy a $30-50,000 tube!

In the case of Na`vi verbs, position 1 is indeed 'penultimate' and position 2 is 'ultimate'.

Since this thread was last active, it has been determined that the only infixes that can go pre-first or position 1A in my scheme, is <äp> and <eyk>. The participle infixes <us> and <awn> are first position <1>, or position 1B in my scheme. Although you can have various combinations of first position (TAM) infixes, the participle infixes cannot combine with any other first position infixes.

Second, the infix positions aren't always where you think. Compound words will have infixes only  in that part of the word that is a verb. The dictionary will help you recognize these. Also, the infix goes in the of sì verbs.

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