less?

[’eylan ’angtsìkä]

is there a place to post simple "I couldn't find this in the dictionary, does it exist?" questions?   
or a list of "words we'd really like to have" we can add to? 

my wish:  "less"

much: txan
little:  hì'i
more:  nì'ul
less: ??

[Kemaweyan]

Good question. I also don't know and need this word often

[Payä Tìrol]

Maybe try to use
hol "less"

[Kemaweyan]

hol = few

However it's interesting idea

[’eylan ’angtsìkä]

There's an interesting "mismatch" in distinctions:

quantity                      txan/"many"                       hol/"few"

amount                       txan/"much"                       hì'i/"little"

size                            tsawl/"big"                         hì'i/"small"     

comparative amount     nì'ul/"more"                       ??/"less"

so in qty/amt/sz we have AABC in the second column and ABB? in the third column.

of course, it's kind of mixed up in English also, where comparative quantity is "more/fewer" and comparative amount is "more/less".  people are always correct in answering 'do you have more water' with 'no I have less' but are often incorrect in answering 'do you have more water bottles' with 'no I have less' instead of 'no I have fewer.'

[omängum fra'uti]

You forgot pxay for many, not txan.  And hìm.

And it seems Sxkxawng alu 'Oma Tirea said it better below.

['Oma Tirea]

There's an interesting "mismatch" in distinctions:

quantity                      txan/"many"                       hol/"few"

amount                       txan/"much"                       hì'i/"little"

size                            tsawl/"big"                         hì'i/"small"    

comparative amount     nì'ul/"more"                       ??/"less"

so in qty/amt/sz we have AABC in the second column and ABB? in the third column

It's actually more like this:

quantity                      pxay/"many"                       hol/"few"

amount                       txan/"much"                       hìm/"little"

size                            tsawl/"big"                         hì'i/"small"    

comparative amount     nì'ul/"more"                         ??/"less"

[Tsuksìm atsawl (KaPTan)]

You forgot pxay for many, not txan.  And hìm.

And it seems Sxkxawng alu 'Oma Tirea said it better below.

fail much?

but yes, this is very interesting indeed.

[omängum fra'uti]

Don't look at me, I was just doing a user name copy and paste.

[kewnya txamew'itan]

I've been using a "to A" where A is the agent of the verb. I don't know if this is correct, but it seems to me that (hopefully) it would be understood.

[omängum fra'uti]

Afraid to say that is not correct. "to" can only be used for direct comparison between two things with respect to an adjective or adverb. Using it alone would imply you were making a comparison to something you had just mentioned, so it would probably be a bit confusing.

[Maria TunVrrtep]

There's an interesting "mismatch" in distinctions:

quantity                      txan/"many"                       hol/"few"

amount                       txan/"much"                       hì'i/"little"

size                            tsawl/"big"                         hì'i/"small"    

comparative amount     nì'ul/"more"                       ??/"less"

so in qty/amt/sz we have AABC in the second column and ABB? in the third column.

of course, it's kind of mixed up in English also, where comparative quantity is "more/fewer" and comparative amount is "more/less".  people are always correct in answering 'do you have more water' with 'no I have less' but are often incorrect in answering 'do you have more water bottles' with 'no I have less' instead of 'no I have fewer.'

From the online Vocabulary ...
nì'it [nɪ.ˈʔit̚] adv. A bit, a small amount (abstract)
There is also ...
'it [ʔit̚] n. Bit, a small amount
hìm [hɪm] adj. Small (in quantity)

But to me it looks like nì'it would be the corollary to nì'ul.

ta TunVrrtep

[’eylan ’angtsìkä]

wow.  great discussion.

definitions below from NA'VI - ENGLISH DICTIONARY v: 11.401, Compiled by Taronyu (Richard Littauer)
examples are mine.  please correct.


A.  I think there is clarity around vocabulary of size and number:

tsawlhì': [>tsawl."hIP] PF n. size (c.w. from tsawl big (in size) and hì'i small (in size))

hì'i   PF   adj.   small, little (in size)
it is a small plant
po lu 'ewll ahì'i

tsawl      PF   adj.   big (in size), tall
it is a big tree
po lu utral atsawl

holpxay: [hol."p'aj] PF n. number (c.w. from hol few and pxay many)

pxay      PF   adj.   many (used with singular or plural noun forms)
there are many hunters
lu pxaya taronyu
   
hol   PF   adj.   few
there are few hunters
lu hola taronyu
   
'a'aw   PF   adj.   a few, several (Used with countable nouns in the singular form)
there are a few hunters
lu 'a'awa taronyu

B. the most confusion is about vocabulary of amount/quantity.  I think we need to carefully distinguish between parts of speech.  the above words of size and number are all adjectives, but with quantity we get nouns and adverbs also.  below are the words on which I think there is clarity.

hìmtxan: [hIm."t'an] PF n. amount (c.w. from hìm small and txan much)

txan   PF   adj.   great, much, many (in quantity)
hunting gives much happiness
tìtaronil ting fpomit atxan.

hìm   PF   adj.   small (in quantity)
fighting gives little happiness
tìwusemil ting fpomit hìm

'it    PF    n.    bit, a small amount
there is food, take a bit
lu syuve, munge 'it.

nì'it   PF   adv.   a bit, a small amount (abstract) (derived from 'it bit, a small amount)
we were hunting a bit
oeng tìrmaron nì'it

nì'ul      PF   adv.   more
let's hunt more
tìyevaron oeng nì'ul

(C) I'll suggest here some sentances, the translation of which will either clarify for me what I don't yet understand or will clarify for all of us where there are vocabulary gaps.

we have more food; eat with us.

you have less food; eat with us.

there is much food, take a lot

we were hunting a lot

let's hunt less


(D) Irayo!

[Kemaweyan]

it is a small plant
po lu 'ewll ahì'i

it is a big tree
po lu utral atsawl

Pronoun po is used only for people (and animals?), but for things (and plants) use fì'u or tsa'u (tsaw).

there are many hunters
lu pxaya taronyu

there are few hunters
lu hola taronyu

there are a few hunters
lu 'a'awa taronyu

Those are correct. But maybe it's better to use hol:

  there are a few hunters
  lu hola taronyu

hunting gives much happiness
tìtaronil ting fpomit atxan.

Perhaps tìtusaron atxan is correct.

fighting gives little happiness
tìwusemil ting fpomit hìm

Good, but fpomit ahìm. Please don't forget this

[’eylan ’angtsìkä]

Pronoun po is used only for people (and animals?), but for things (and plants) use fì'u or tsa'u (tsaw).

thanks.  I will make that correction.  I'm putting together a document and will share when all the corrections and suggestions are in.

Those are correct. But maybe it's better to use hol:

  there are a few hunters
  lu hola taronyu attribute

I didn't understand your point here.  could you clarify?  thanks.

hunting gives much happiness
tìtaronil ting fpomit atxan.

Perhaps tìtusaron atxan is correct.

tusaron is a participle, therefore an adjective, so it needs to go with a noun (Horen Lì'fyayä leNa'vi, A Reference Grammar of Na'vi, William S. Annis, Version 1.07, September 30, 2010, section 6.9).  Wouldn't  tìtusaron atxan mean happiness was hunting?

fighting gives little happiness
tìwusemil ting fpomit hìm

Good, but fpomit ahìm. Please don't forget this

Absolutely.    Thanks again for all your help.

[omängum fra'uti]

Tìtusaron is a gerund - a noun for the act of hunting.

However "ACTION gives MOOD" seems a bit idiomatic to me, so that one is probably best done instead something like...

Tìtusaronìl fkoti 'eykefu nitram nìtxan
Hunting makes one (feel) very happy

Note that nitram is more appropriate here than fpom, given the English you gave.

[wm.annis]

tusaron is a participle, therefore an adjective, so it needs to go with a noun (Horen Lì'fyayä leNa'vi, A Reference Grammar of Na'vi, William S. Annis, Version 1.07, September 30, 2010, section 6.9).  Wouldn't  tìtusaron atxan mean happiness was hunting?

Eek!  In the next version I will make it clear that though gerunds are allies of participles, they are actually a verbal noun.

[Kemaweyan]

I didn't understand your point here.  could you clarify?  thanks.

I just want to say that antonym to pxay is hol:

  pxay - many
  hol - few

[’eylan ’angtsìkä]

thanks, everyone. 
I appreciate the corrections and will ask about them as necessary.  But I also want to encourage that we continue to talk about the original issue which is vocabulary of quantity.

I can see it was a mistake to use the example of hunting gives much happiness, and should have striven for a more concrete use of txan.  Instead, let's use

there is much rain
lu tompa axtan

in contrast with
there is little rain
lu tompa ahìm

Note that nitram is more appropriate here than fpom, given the English you gave.

yes, very.  I need to be more thorough in using the dictionary.

Tìtusaron is a gerund - a noun for the act of hunting.

ah yes.  I see now.  Horen section 5.1.3.1. cures my confusion about why <us> is necessary, and not ti- alone. 

Eek!  In the next version I will make it clear that though gerunds are allies of participles, they are actually a verbal noun.

yes, that's how I understood it. and I thought the grammar was pretty clear about it, since it is often a challenge for English speakers, since we use -ing for both.

so would you agree that if we were still using the phrase hunting gives much happiness -- which we're not because it isn't idiomatic so make believe it's some other comparable phrase without other mistakes -- hunting would be the gerund in ergative case, tìtusaronil ?

I appreciate all the help.

[Carborundum]

there is much rain
lu tompa axtan

in contrast with
there is little rain
lu tompa ahìm

This isn't correct. Your mistake is that you're using the adjectives both attributively and predicatively. You should do one or the other, not both.

Attributive usage is like so: much rain makes TSu'tey angry / txana tompal steyki TSu'teyit
Predicative: there is much rain, which makes  TSu'tey angry / tompa lu txan a fì'ul steyki TSu'teyit