Let's try some translation

Started by Mech, February 27, 2013, 06:13:44 PM

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Mech

I am back trying to get the hold of Na'vi. :) As the introduction says, the best way to learn/memorize words is to use them.

I don't have anything particular to translate so I thought fooling around with some LotR Elvish.

For starters, let's translate the Elvish greeting from LotR.

"A star shines on the hour of our (dual incl.) meeting"

Tanhì atan tìng krrur ultxayä oengä

Here's an interesting problem: I found no word for shine or light so I thought using a tìng construction. But since it's not an official expression like "tìng nari" I wonder if there should be any agentive-accusative suffxes here, and have "tanhìl atanìt tìng" instead.

So how's this for a start?

Vawmataw

Kaltxì ma Mech.

The verb lu can replace the verb ''to shine''.

Tanhì lu txanatan fpì oengä ultxayä swaw.
A star is bright for the sake/the benifice of the moment of our meeting.

Also: Tanhìl atanit tìng krrur ultxayä oengä.
Fmawn Ta 'Rrta - News IN NA'VI ONLY (Discord)
Traducteur francophone de Kelutral.org, dict-navi et Reykunyu

Irtaviš Ačankif

Previously Ithisa Kīranem, Uniltìrantokx te Skxawng.

Name from my Sakaš conlang, from Sakasul Ältäbisäl Acarankïp

"First name" is Ačankif, not Eltabiš! In Na'vi, Atsankip.

Tsyalatun te Eyktan Txuratu'itan

Quote from: Mech on February 27, 2013, 06:13:44 PM
I found no word for shine or light so I thought using a tìng construction.
You seem to have found the word for "light": atan: n. light

There is also: nrr: vin. glow, be luminous

Quote from: Mech on February 27, 2013, 06:13:44 PM
"A star shines on the hour of our (dual incl.) meeting"
Tanhì atan tìng krrur ultxayä oengä

Hmm.  I think I'd have said:  Tanhì nrr krr a ultxa oengeyä

oengeyä ultxa - because it is the "our" which is possessing the "meeting"
krr a - "when" or "(at) the time that"

but that may also be wrong. :)

Tirea Aean

Quote from: Arekáthe Akêtheni on February 27, 2013, 06:39:49 PM
Quote from: Kameyu a Kepekmì on February 27, 2013, 06:23:16 PM
Tanhì lu txanatan fpì oengeyä ultxayä swaw.

Quote from: Tsyalatun te Eyktan Txuratu'itan on February 27, 2013, 06:42:04 PM
Quote from: Mech on February 27, 2013, 06:13:44 PM
I found no word for shine or light so I thought using a tìng construction.
You seem to have found the word for "light": atan: n. light

There is also: nrr: vin. glow, be luminous

Quote from: Mech on February 27, 2013, 06:13:44 PM
"A star shines on the hour of our (dual incl.) meeting"
Tanhì atan tìng krrur ultxayä oengä

Hmm.  I think I'd have said:  Tanhì nrr krr a ultxa oengeyä

oengeyä ultxa - because it is the "our" which is possessing the "meeting"
krr a - "when" or "(at) the time that"

but that may also be wrong. :)

Krra is when. But it only (IMO) makes sense that whatever comes next is a verb phrase. How about:

Ultxari oengeyä nrr tanhì.
As for our meeting, a star glows.
A star glows upon our meeting

Taken on the model of Norm:

'Awvea ultxari ohengeyä nawma sa'nok lrrtok siveiyi
As for our first meeting, may the great mother smile
May the Great Mother smile upon our first meeting

Mech

Thank you all for the feedback and the alternative translations. It seems I was mostly correct except on the oengeyä.

Quote from: Tirea Aean on February 27, 2013, 07:20:03 PM
Krra is when. But it only (IMO) makes sense that whatever comes next is a verb phrase. How about:

Ultxari oengeyä nrr tanhì.
As for our meeting, a star glows.
That's a more liberal translation. The "original" Quenya greeting uses a form indicating a dynamic movement: A star sends its light towards the hour of our meeting (to bless it). So it's not simply a neutral glowing that has sparked when we met, but something more dynamic. Or that's how I interpret the Quenya allative form lumenna which I thought translating by using the dative.

In that sense, I wonder if using ne can be more accurate: Tanhì atan s[eiy]i ne krr ultxayä oengeyä

Tirea Aean

#6
Quote from: Mech on February 28, 2013, 03:20:23 AM
Thank you all for the feedback and the alternative translations. It seems I was mostly correct except on the oengeyä.

Quote from: Tirea Aean on February 27, 2013, 07:20:03 PM
Krra is when. But it only (IMO) makes sense that whatever comes next is a verb phrase. How about:

Ultxari oengeyä nrr tanhì.
As for our meeting, a star glows.
That's a more liberal translation. The "original" Quenya greeting uses a form indicating a dynamic movement: A star sends its light towards the hour of our meeting (to bless it). So it's not simply a neutral glowing that has sparked when we met, but something more dynamic. Or that's how I interpret the Quenya allative form lumenna which I thought translating by using the dative.

In that sense, I wonder if using ne can be more accurate: Tanhì atan s[eiy]i ne krr ultxayä oengeyä

Ah. I see.

This would be brilliant, if *atan si were possible. si cannot be used with just any noun. its productivity is quite low, like the deriving prefixes sä-, le-, and tì-. Words using these and si are exhaustively listed in the dictionary because of this.

avoiding *atan si is a big reason why I used nrr. But the problem with nrr is that it's not quite bright enough, I think.

Going back to OP, I don't see why not Maybe this might be good:

QuoteTanhìl atanit tìng krrur ultxayä oengeyä

This clearly is highly metaphorical and poetic, though. Not a big problem, but wondering if it's idiomatic perhaps to the point of being confusing or semantically nonsense to a Na'vi.

Mech

May I ask something about <ei> which confuses me. If I say "tanhìl atanit teiyìng..." would that mean "I am happy that a star shines..." or "a star happily shines...". Does it indicate the positive mood of the speaker, or the subject? Of course the preferred meaning is the 1st one.

Irtaviš Ačankif

It indicates the mood of the speaker.
Previously Ithisa Kīranem, Uniltìrantokx te Skxawng.

Name from my Sakaš conlang, from Sakasul Ältäbisäl Acarankïp

"First name" is Ačankif, not Eltabiš! In Na'vi, Atsankip.

Blue Elf

Quote from: Tirea Aean on February 28, 2013, 03:36:28 AM
Ah. I see.

This would be brilliant, if *atan si were possible. si cannot be used with just any noun. its productivity is quite low, like the deriving prefixes sä-, le-, and tì-. Words using these and si are exhaustively listed in the dictionary because of this.

avoiding *atan si is a big reason why I used nrr. But the problem with nrr is that it's not quite bright enough, I think.

Going back to OP, I don't see why not Maybe this might be good:

QuoteTanhìl atanit tìng krrur ultxayä oengeyä

This clearly is highly metaphorical and poetic, though. Not a big problem, but wondering if it's idiomatic perhaps to the point of being confusing or semantically nonsense to a Na'vi.
I just add <iv> as it sounds like wish:
Tanhìl atanit tivìng krrur ultxayä oengeyä
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
"Oe tasyätxaw ulte koren za'u oehu" (Limonádový Joe)


Tsyalatun te Eyktan Txuratu'itan

Quote from: Tirea Aean on February 27, 2013, 07:20:03 PM
Krra is when.

Okay, so this highlights the danger of using NiaN to learn from without the guidance of someone more knowledgeable.  Quote from NiaN:

Tip: You can also use a krr/krr a for its literal translation (at) the time that.

I think I've asked this question before about another misleading item in NiaN... how can we get NiaN fixed?

Tirea Aean

Quote from: Tsyalatun te Eyktan Txuratu'itan on February 28, 2013, 02:00:31 PM
Quote from: Tirea Aean on February 27, 2013, 07:20:03 PM
Krra is when.

Okay, so this highlights the danger of using NiaN to learn from without the guidance of someone more knowledgeable.  Quote from NiaN:

Tip: You can also use a krr/krr a for its literal translation (at) the time that.

I think I've asked this question before about another misleading item in NiaN... how can we get NiaN fixed?

I think that is still true. krra is listed as a conjunction. I know we have had a krr / krr a forever, but recently we received krra from Paul. So I can't remember if that means krr a is now dead and became krra, or if there is actually difference between krr a and krra where they are both in use. I wanna say that it's still ok to use krr a to say at the time which... And krra is pretty much the exact same thing, being conj. when. And really, when speaking, there is absolutely no difference between "krra" and "krr a".

Mech

Ok so let's make another attempt. Another Elvish phrase from LotR (actually Old English) is "Hail Earendil, brightest of stars"

I found out that superlative is formed with "frato" but I have found no examples of a "-est than" formation. Here goes a random attempt.

Kaltxì ma Earendil, txanatan frato aysanhì

Most probably wrong, but it's just a start.

Vawmataw

#13
Quote from: Mech on February 28, 2013, 04:14:33 PM
Kaltxì ma Earentil, txanatana frato aytanhì.
Almost right. :)

First, there's no letter d in Na'vi, so we can use t or tx instead. Also, every adjective of a noun must have the particle a, which is pointing to the noun, except the adjectives starting with le- (the particle is not obligatory or just forbidden). Example: Vawma taw, Taw avawm (Dark sky; taw is the noun); Tute letxi, Letxi tute (hurried person; tute is the noun).

Also, it's not clear if Earentil is a star, a person, an animal or an object.

You're right about frato: this is the superlative marker. However, there's no noun ending for superlative. Additionnaly, frato means ''than all X'', so you don't need the plural form. Example: Tute alor frato (The prettiest person [than all pretty people]), Aysute alor frato (The prettiest people [than all prettiest people]).
Fmawn Ta 'Rrta - News IN NA'VI ONLY (Discord)
Traducteur francophone de Kelutral.org, dict-navi et Reykunyu

Tsyalatun te Eyktan Txuratu'itan

Quote from: Kameyu a Kepekmì on February 28, 2013, 04:24:00 PM
Quote from: Mech on February 28, 2013, 04:14:33 PM
Kaltxì ma Earentil, txanatana frato aysanhì.
Almost right. :)

First, there's no letter d in Na'vi, so we can use t or tx instead. Also, every adjective of a noun must have the particle a pointing to the noun, except the adjectives starting with le- (the particle is not obligatory or just forbidden). Example: Vawma taw, Taw avawm (Dark sky; taw is the noun).

Also, it's not clear if Earentil is a star, a person, an animal or an object.

Hmm.  However "frato" isn't a noun, it's a particle, so adding the 'a' to try and join it to frato seems wrong to me.

NiaN gives this example for frato: Fì-utral frato tsawl lu (This tree is the tallest.)  Notice that the adjective is unattached.  Same in Horen: fìsyulang arim lu hì'i frato (this yellow flower is the smallest of all)

As for Earendil, looking this up in google, I find this reference on Wikipedia:
Aiya Eärendil Elenion Ancalima! which is Quenya, and translates to "Hail Eärendil, brightest of stars!" Frodo's exclamation was in reference to the 'Star-glass' he carried, which contained the light of Eärendil's star, the Silmaril.

So, I think it's the name of a star.  My guess would be:

Kaltxì tanhì alu Earentil, a frato txanatan lu.

Literally: Hello star that is Earentil, which is the brightest of all.

Vawmataw

Quote from: Tsyalatun te Eyktan Txuratu'itan
Kaltxì ma tanhì alu Earentil, a frato txanatan lu.
I'd approve also this sentence. However, when we greet someone (or something) in Na'vi, never forget ma. ;)

Also, I would write Kaltxì ma Earentil, tanhì atxanatan frato.
Fmawn Ta 'Rrta - News IN NA'VI ONLY (Discord)
Traducteur francophone de Kelutral.org, dict-navi et Reykunyu

Tsyalatun te Eyktan Txuratu'itan

Quote from: Kameyu a Kepekmì on February 28, 2013, 04:50:31 PM
Quote from: Tsyalatun te Eyktan Txuratu'itan
Kaltxì ma tanhì alu Earentil, a frato txanatan lu.
I'd approve also this sentence. However, when we greet someone (or something) in Na'vi, never forget ma. ;)

Also, I would write Kaltxì ma Earentil, tanhì atxanatan frato.

I think that's debatable.  From Horen Lìfyayä LeNa'vi, Ma is used when speaking directly to individual(s) directly.  First, you can't speak directly to a star.  Secondly, a star is not an individual or group of individuals.

We also have this: "Mawey, Na'viya, mawey" - which appears in the film, spoken by Neytiri, and is copied into Horen.  Ney is clearly speaking to a group of Na'vi without the use of "ma".

Plumps

Quote from: Tsyalatun te Eyktan Txuratu'itan on February 28, 2013, 05:04:35 PM
Quote from: Kameyu a Kepekmì on February 28, 2013, 04:50:31 PM
Quote from: Tsyalatun te Eyktan Txuratu'itan
Kaltxì ma tanhì alu Earentil, a frato txanatan lu.
I'd approve also this sentence. However, when we greet someone (or something) in Na'vi, never forget ma. ;)

Also, I would write Kaltxì ma Earentil, tanhì atxanatan frato.

I think that's debatable.  From Horen Lìfyayä LeNa'vi, Ma is used when speaking directly to individual(s) directly.  First, you can't speak directly to a star.  Secondly, a star is not an individual or group of individuals.

We also have this: "Mawey, Na'viya, mawey" - which appears in the film, spoken by Neytiri, and is copied into Horen.  Ney is clearly speaking to a group of Na'vi without the use of "ma".

Because that's an alternative vocative marker for group nouns ;) mawey, ma Na'vi is correct as well.
You raise an interesting point with the indivual point ... :-\ But I'd say if you personify an object then you can also address it with ma ... why not? You address whatever directly and that's an instance of ma.


Quote from: Kameyu a Kepekmì on February 28, 2013, 04:50:31 PMAlso, I would write Kaltxì ma Earentil alu tanhì atxanatan frato.

Perfect example of an attribution where there is no word used in English but Na'vi would have to use alu.

Quote from: Kameyu a Kepekmì on February 28, 2013, 04:24:00 PMTute letxi, Letxia tute (hurried person; tute is the noun).

;) attributive a may only be dropped with adjectives in le- when they follow the noun

Vawmataw

Thanks for additionnal precisions. :)

When advanced beginners try to explain something, they are not exactly right.
Fmawn Ta 'Rrta - News IN NA'VI ONLY (Discord)
Traducteur francophone de Kelutral.org, dict-navi et Reykunyu

Blue Elf

Quote from: Tirea Aean on February 28, 2013, 02:09:36 PM
Quote from: Tsyalatun te Eyktan Txuratu'itan on February 28, 2013, 02:00:31 PM
Quote from: Tirea Aean on February 27, 2013, 07:20:03 PM
Krra is when.

Okay, so this highlights the danger of using NiaN to learn from without the guidance of someone more knowledgeable.  Quote from NiaN:

Tip: You can also use a krr/krr a for its literal translation (at) the time that.

I think I've asked this question before about another misleading item in NiaN... how can we get NiaN fixed?

I think that is still true. krra is listed as a conjunction. I know we have had a krr / krr a forever, but recently we received krra from Paul. So I can't remember if that means krr a is now dead and became krra, or if there is actually difference between krr a and krra where they are both in use. I wanna say that it's still ok to use krr a to say at the time which... And krra is pretty much the exact same thing, being conj. when. And really, when speaking, there is absolutely no difference between "krra" and "krr a".
what Paul said:
QuoteThe spelling convention krr a, as two words, is not incorrect, but krra is preferred. With the reverse clause order, however, a krr is the correct spelling. This mirrors the convention with a fì'u.
Source: Naviteri
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
"Oe tasyätxaw ulte koren za'u oehu" (Limonádový Joe)