Phrase construction: (The) Woman in Red

Started by Kame Ayyo’koti, February 13, 2014, 05:39:40 AM

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Kame Ayyo’koti

I'm trying to construct a phrase that means "the woman in red," or more literally "the woman who wears red." I want it to be a noun phrase. This is what I have:

Tut-e a yemstokx tumpin-it
Attempted meaning: The woman who puts on (the color) red.

Paul says (under the section "Wearing") you need to say "has put on", or:
Tut-e a y<ol>emstokx tumpin-it
A.m.: The woman who has put on (the color) red.

But I think in this context, used as a way to describe a person, it sounds fine to say simply "puts on," as in the first example. Either way of saying it would work, I guess, even if they "feel" different.

In fact, would it be appropriate to just say this?:
Tut-e tumpin-mì
A.m.: The woman in red.

Can be used only for places (e.g. "mì helku"), or can it be used abstractly like this? (E.g. "in trouble/danger")

Have I constructed these right?
"Your work is to discover your world, and then with all your heart give yourself to it."

Kemaweyan

I think it could work. We have a phrase tì'efu oeyä, so could be used abstractly. Also I think it should be tuté a tumpinmì, because it's an attribute for tuté.

And I think tuté a yolemstokx tumpinit would be better than first example without -ol- :)
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Plumps

Ma Kerame Ayo'koti,

you are doing a great job ;) Admit it, you've been practicing secretly before signing to the fora ;D Txantsan nìwotx!

I agree with Kemaweyan.
I'd just like to point out that using tumpin here sounds to me as if you were speaking about "warpaint" (apart from the fact that you cannot wear the colour red ;) ) – so, ioi säpoli fa tumpin is a possibility as well. If you are speaking about regular clothes then yolemstokx (ay)penit atun will disambiguate, I think.

Tìtstewan

#3
What about this?

         Tute w<äp><ol>eyn tumpin-mì.
         Woman painted herself in red.

or

         (Tute a w<ol>eyn snot tumpin-mì.)
         Woman which painted herself in red.

(just for curiousity)

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Plumps

Quote from: Tìtstewan on February 13, 2014, 08:07:55 AM
What about this?

          Tute w<äp><ol>eyn tumpin-mì.
          Woman painted herself in red.

Also possible, I think, but that is really warpaint ;) I also think tumpinfa is also possible.

Quote from: Tìtstewan on February 13, 2014, 08:07:55 AM
          Tute a w<ol>eyn snot tumpin-mì.
          Woman which painted herself in red.

Here, *snot doesn't seem right. The reflexive infix ‹äp› still applies, so tuté a wäpoleyn tumpinfa still holds true.

But that is perhaps more than tsmuke Kerame Ayo'koti wants to go into right now...

Tìtstewan

#5
Uh, I lost the connection to the LN server while I was going to fix that... :(
(So, Plumps was faster, nevermind my second sentence.) :)

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Kemaweyan

Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Kame Ayyo’koti

Quote from: Plumps on February 13, 2014, 06:18:53 AM
Ma Kerame Ayo'koti,

you are doing a great job ;) Admit it, you've been practicing secretly before signing to the fora ;D Txantsan nìwotx!
Ke pxan, ma Plumps! I have been studying very carefully. :P Having taken Introduction to Linguistics in college also helps a lot. :) Of course, studying language and speaking it are very different things...

Quote from: Plumps on February 13, 2014, 06:18:53 AM
I'd just like to point out that using tumpin here sounds to me as if you were speaking about "warpaint" (apart from the fact that you cannot wear the colour red ;) ) – so, ioi säpoli fa tumpin is a possibility as well. If you are speaking about regular clothes then yolemstokx (ay)penit atun will disambiguate, I think.

I was thinking of clothing. ("Lady in reeeeddd~..." lol) I didn't think to mention it though.

Quote from: Plumps on February 13, 2014, 08:14:24 AM
I also think tumpinfa is also possible.

That could work, although fa seems to imply doing something (like, "I shot the deer with the bow"). Maybe hu would be better?

Quote from: Kemaweyan on February 13, 2014, 05:46:32 AMAlso I think it should be tuté a tumpinmì, because it's an attribute for tuté.

So it would mean something like, "Woman who (is) in red."? Does that mean phrases like tumpinmì only describe verbs, and they need a to describe nouns?


Pxe-ngaru irayo nìtxan. :)
"Your work is to discover your world, and then with all your heart give yourself to it."

Kemaweyan

Quote from: Kerame Ayo'koti on February 13, 2014, 08:33:07 AM
Does that mean phrases like tumpinmì only describe verbs, and they need a to describe nouns?

Exactly ;)
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Plumps

Quote from: Kerame Ayo'koti on February 13, 2014, 08:33:07 AMKe pxan, ma Plumps! I have been studying very carefully. :P Having taken Introduction to Linguistics in college also helps a lot. :) Of course, studying language and speaking it are very different things...
True, but I feel you are on the right track ;)

Quote from: Kerame Ayo'koti on February 13, 2014, 08:33:07 AM
I was thinking of clothing. ("Lady in reeeeddd~..." lol) I didn't think to mention it though.
I thought as much :)

Quote from: Kerame Ayo'koti on February 13, 2014, 08:33:07 AMThat could work, although fa seems to imply doing something (like, "I shot the deer with the bow"). Maybe hu would be better?
hu doesn't seem right to me here. Isn't the colour the tool by which she paints/adorns herself? :P
Anyway, we are speaking about wearing clothes, not warpaint :P

Quote from: Kerame Ayo'koti on February 13, 2014, 08:33:07 AM
Quote from: Kemaweyan on February 13, 2014, 05:46:32 AMAlso I think it should be tuté a tumpinmì, because it's an attribute for tuté.

So it would mean something like, "Woman who (is) in red."? Does that mean phrases like tumpinmì only describe verbs, and they need a to describe nouns?
Well put. If you have introduction to linguistics you may have heard of prepositional phrases, perhaps? That's what these are, they are attributions to nouns, and in Na'vi they can't be connected as in English. A Na'vi would understand "woman in red" always as "woman who is in red / who wears red" etc. and that is done with a





Quote from: Kemaweyan on February 13, 2014, 08:32:24 AM
Quote from: Plumps on February 13, 2014, 08:14:24 AM

Here, *snot doesn't seem right.

Hmm.. Why?

Because it would make ‹äp› redundant altogether, don't you think ;) Otherwise, our walk-around of 3, 4 years ago with *oel tse'a oeti "I see me" would be grammatical—which it is not ;)

Kemaweyan

Quote from: Plumps on February 13, 2014, 08:49:50 AM
Because it would make ‹äp› redundant altogether, don't you think ;) Otherwise, our walk-around of 3, 4 years ago with *oel tse'a oeti "I see me" would be grammatical—which it is not ;)

Why it is not grammatical? It could be stylistically incorrect or unnatural, but grammatically it would be correct. There are transitive verb, its subject and object. Oe (and sno too) has forms oel and oet, so grammatically there is no problems :)
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Blue Elf

Quote from: Kerame Ayo'koti on February 13, 2014, 08:33:07 AM
Quote from: Plumps on February 13, 2014, 08:14:24 AM
I also think tumpinfa is also possible.
That could work, although fa seems to imply doing something (like, "I shot the deer with the bow"). Maybe hu would be better?
Those two adpositions can be a little confusing sometimes, but:
hu means accompanient, like in Oe hu Txewì tìran kxamlä na'rìng -> I with Txewì walk through the forest.
fa means "with help of, by", like Oel tolaron yerikit fa tukru -> I have hunted hexapede by (with help of) spear.
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
"Oe tasyätxaw ulte koren za'u oehu" (Limonádový Joe)


`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

Quote from: Blue Elf on February 13, 2014, 01:29:52 PM
Quote from: Kerame Ayo'koti on February 13, 2014, 08:33:07 AM
Quote from: Plumps on February 13, 2014, 08:14:24 AM
I also think tumpinfa is also possible.
That could work, although fa seems to imply doing something (like, "I shot the deer with the bow"). Maybe hu would be better?
Those two adpositions can be a little confusing sometimes, but:
hu means accompanient, like in Oe hu Txewì tìran kxamlä na'rìng -> I with Txewì walk through the forest.
fa means "with help of, by", like Oel tolaron yerikit fa tukru -> I have hunted hexapede by (with help of) spear.

I think hu actually works quite nicely here, as the kind of feeling in this phrase iw better described by 'with', and not 'by means of'.

I wonder if an alternate construction is valid: Tute a hu pxen alu tumpin

Yawey ngahu!
pamrel si ro [email protected]

Plumps

Quote from: `Eylan Ayfalulukanä on February 14, 2014, 04:17:39 AM
I think hu actually works quite nicely here, as the kind of feeling in this phrase iw better described by 'with', and not 'by means of'.

I would always understand that as "she's taking it along" not "wearing it".

Plumps

Quote from: Kemaweyan on February 13, 2014, 08:59:58 AM
Quote from: Plumps on February 13, 2014, 08:49:50 AM
Because it would make ‹äp› redundant altogether, don't you think ;) Otherwise, our walk-around of 3, 4 years ago with *oel tse'a oeti "I see me" would be grammatical—which it is not ;)

Why it is not grammatical? It could be stylistically incorrect or unnatural, but grammatically it would be correct. There are transitive verb, its subject and object. Oe (and sno too) has forms oel and oet, so grammatically there is no problems :)

Semantics, then. It might be grammatically acceptable because with a transitive verb you have l and t endings, but I doubt that it is deemed correct. Ah, alas, we can't ask a native speaker...