Author Topic: Quick phrase question  (Read 846 times)

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Offline `Eylan Ayfalulukanä

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Quick phrase question
« on: November 23, 2010, 03:49:44 pm »
For a recent peoject, I did a quick translation of 'connecting our community', and came up with 'awstengyerem ayoeng olo`. Although `awstengyem is transitive, it seemed to me that 'our' (ayoeng) didn't seem like an agent. So, I did not case-mark this phrase. Was this a correct assumption (and why), or would this more correctly be 'awstengyerem ayoengìl olo`ti?

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Offline wm.annis

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Re: Quick phrase question
« Reply #1 on: November 23, 2010, 03:58:52 pm »
For a recent peoject, I did a quick translation of 'connecting our community', and came up with 'awstengyerem ayoeng olo`. Although `awstengyem is transitive, it seemed to me that 'our' (ayoeng) didn't seem like an agent. So, I did not case-mark this phrase. Was this a correct assumption (and why), or would this more correctly be 'awstengyerem ayoengìl olo`ti?

Well, olo' definitely has to be an object (I'd use olo'it, but that's just me).

Without more context, the rest of this is a pain — it's leaving out so much.  After the frames work I did last week, I'm inclined to use the topical:

  awngal 'awstengyem olo'it. (or ayoengal for the shorter awngal)

I always find these sorts of phrases (unspecified agent, etc., etc.) a pain to work into other language, each of which has their own convention for oddballs like this.
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Offline kewnya txamew'itan

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Re: Quick phrase question
« Reply #2 on: November 23, 2010, 04:21:40 pm »
The topical doesn't seem right here to me, it's not a set phrase and a doesn't seem to be a case of inalienable possession, I'd probably go with the genitive:

'awnstengyerem olo'it awngeyä
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Offline `Eylan Ayfalulukanä

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Re: Quick phrase question
« Reply #3 on: November 23, 2010, 09:46:11 pm »

Well, olo' definitely has to be an object (I'd use olo'it, but that's just me).
You are absolutely right. Forgot about the glottal stop being a 'consonant'!

Quote from: wm.annis
Without more context, the rest of this is a pain — it's leaving out so much.  After the frames work I did last week, I'm inclined to use the topical:

  awngal 'awstengyem olo'it. (or ayoengal for the shorter awngal)

I always find these sorts of phrases (unspecified agent, etc., etc.) a pain to work into other language, each of which has their own convention for oddballs like this.

The entire phrase is (was) Ayftxozä lefpom ayngaru nìwotx ta KNPB. `Awstengyerem ayoeng olo` The last part was tacked on at the last moment, as it was desired that this phrase be part of our 'holiday greeting'.

You considered using the topical, but did not provide an example. What did you have in mind?

I like kewnya txamew'itan of using the genitive in here. There just doesn't seem to be a strong subject/object relationship here.

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Offline wm.annis

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Re: Quick phrase question
« Reply #4 on: November 24, 2010, 07:29:25 am »
The entire phrase is (was) Ayftxozä lefpom ayngaru nìwotx ta KNPB. `Awstengyerem ayoeng olo` The last part was tacked on at the last moment, as it was desired that this phrase be part of our 'holiday greeting'.

You considered using the topical, but did not provide an example. What did you have in mind?

Working off the ambiguity of the topical — it can be used for possession, especially inalienable but not exclusively, but it can be a stand-in for almost any case relationship:

  awngari 'awstengyem olo'it

I have no problem using a (near)inalienable construction for olo', but at the same time the awngari could act in a subject-y sort of way.  I'm not sure it's the best way.  We have no idea how motto and proverb abbreviation works, and this sentence is akin to that.
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Offline kewnya txamew'itan

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Re: Quick phrase question
« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2010, 11:00:21 am »
The entire phrase is (was) Ayftxozä lefpom ayngaru nìwotx ta KNPB. `Awstengyerem ayoeng olo` The last part was tacked on at the last moment, as it was desired that this phrase be part of our 'holiday greeting'.

You considered using the topical, but did not provide an example. What did you have in mind?

Working off the ambiguity of the topical — it can be used for possession, especially inalienable but not exclusively, but it can be a stand-in for almost any case relationship:

  awngari 'awstengyem olo'it

I have no problem using a (near)inalienable construction for olo', but at the same time the awngari could act in a subject-y sort of way.  I'm not sure it's the best way.  We have no idea how motto and proverb abbreviation works, and this sentence is akin to that.


Looking at it again, I'd say that the "possession" of a clan would be of the same type as a family member but I don't think we have any examples where the person whose mother it is is explicitly stated in which case " 'awstengyerem olo'it"  might be better.
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