Keep learning

Started by Tirea Aean, November 25, 2010, 09:35:28 AM

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Tirea Aean


`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

Quote from: Tirea Aean on November 25, 2010, 09:35:28 AM
What is latsi nerume?

I should have described that.
"Keep learning" is what it is supposed to mean. I probably made the same kind of mistakes there I was expounding on. :(

Yawey ngahu!
pamrel si ro [email protected]

Tirea Aean

#2
Quote from: `Eylan Ayfalulukanä on November 25, 2010, 10:58:29 AM
Quote from: Tirea Aean on November 25, 2010, 09:35:28 AM
What is latsi nerume?

I should have described that.
"Keep learning" is what it is supposed to mean. I probably made the same kind of mistakes there I was expounding on. :(

oh i get it...

latsi means: v. to KEEP UP WITH [someone]

say you and a friend are running and you are unable to latsi him because he is much faster than you.

this "keep up the good work" idiom seems to have gotten to you. it really means "continue doing good work"
latsi is talking about, AFAIK,  to compete and stay on the same page or level as someone, that sense of keep up with someone. i hope this makes sense. and there is a chance i may be wrong, as i never use this word. but im pretty sure thats what it is referring to.

also, im not sure if thats the right form of nume. (are we even sure as to how to say "keep verbing" that is, "continue verbing"??)

but this is a whole other plate of teylu... i get what you're saying, which is most of the battle. communication is really about the transferring of an idea from one person to the other with as little corruption/changing as possible...blah rant rant. sorry, offtopic.

kewnya txamew'itan

Quote from: Tirea Aean on November 25, 2010, 11:07:16 AM
perhaps a new topic should be made for this

Ask and it shall be done.  :)

"keep learning" is progressive so you'd expect <er>, it's also imperative so <iv> might come in. On balance, I'd go with "nirvume mi" and maybe tag a "nga" on at the end, that sounds quite nice to me.
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Tirea Aean

Quote from: kewnya txamew'itan on November 25, 2010, 12:40:55 PM
Quote from: Tirea Aean on November 25, 2010, 11:07:16 AM
perhaps a new topic should be made for this

Ask and it shall be done.  :)

"keep learning" is progressive so you'd expect <er>, it's also imperative so <iv> might come in. On balance, I'd go with "nirvume mi" and maybe tag a "nga" on at the end, that sounds quite nice to me.

but that to me doesnt sound like "keep/continue learning" as a command. mi is a word that means yet/still. so what this says is would be learning still and if you put nga, its even more ambiguous (to me) whether it is a command. you woud still be learning. what we need is a word for continue. here is what i would  say:

tìnusumeri sivalew.

it is clearly a command that says "proceed with the learning", as for learning, go on. etc. there are probably other ways of saying this, this is just what i can come up with at the moment.

kewnya txamew'itan

Due to the <iv> it could be interpreted as an optative "may you be learning still" which, now at least, seems more natural than an imperative. As for the mi, I tend to think of it as more like the Spanish "todavía" than an English still/yet (although I have found in the past that my intuition with na'vi is probably closer to my Spanish than is ideal) which, I think sounds natural here.
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wm.annis

This use of "keep," in the sense of "continue (to)," is on the LEP list. :)

That said, I sort of like the idea of using some construction with salew to indicate this aspect.  But the gerund seems very unnatural to me.  Using salew as an aspectual modal seems more natural.  Perhaps we should ask Frommer to bless* this usage.


_____
And a word for "approve of" :P

Tirea Aean

Quote from: wm.annis on November 25, 2010, 01:12:04 PM
This use of "keep," in the sense of "continue (to)," is on the LEP list. :)

That said, I sort of like the idea of using some construction with salew to indicate this aspect.  But the gerund seems very unnatural to me.  Using salew as an aspectual modal seems more natural.  Perhaps we should ask Frommer to bless* this usage.


_____
And a word for "approve of" :P

yes. as my second choice would have been salew nivume.

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

Thank you again for extending this discussion. Its interesting to see the different ways people are trying to say the same thing. A lot depens on what part of the vocabulary we are currently comfortable with. In reviewing what is here, I am liking the constructions based on salew n(iv)ume

Yawey ngahu!
pamrel si ro [email protected]

Muzer

I agree with making salew modal.
[21:42:56] <@Muzer> Apple products used to be good, if expensive
[21:42:59] <@Muzer> now they are just expensive

kewnya txamew'itan

I'm not sure I like salew, the only example I could find of it being used uses it more like "to leave" than the given gloss. Also, I think that morphological solutions are generally the most elegant although that's very subjective.
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Tirea Aean

Quote from: kewnya txamew'itan on November 25, 2010, 03:38:19 PM
I'm not sure I like salew, the only example I could find of it being used uses it more like "to leave" than the given gloss. Also, I think that morphological solutions are generally the most elegant although that's very subjective.

uh how about

oe solalew zìsìt amevopey
I have proceeded 19 years.

i see it more of a proceed as in move along.

wm.annis

Quote from: kewnya txamew'itan on November 25, 2010, 03:38:19 PMAlso, I think that morphological solutions are generally the most elegant although that's very subjective.

To "keep doing something" is an aspect.  But Frommer has already said, "no more infixes."  So, we should expect paraphrasis (i.e., helping verbs) for things like this in the future.

Muzer

Offtopic, but I think you've been studying too much Na'vi recently - you structured that quotation just like you would in Na'vi ;)
[21:42:56] <@Muzer> Apple products used to be good, if expensive
[21:42:59] <@Muzer> now they are just expensive

Tirea Aean

Quote from: Muzer on November 25, 2010, 06:16:35 PM
Offtopic, but I think you've been studying too much Na'vi recently - you structured that quotation just like you would in Na'vi ;)

I dont see it.

kewnya txamew'itan

Quote from: Tirea Aean on November 25, 2010, 04:58:49 PM
Quote from: kewnya txamew'itan on November 25, 2010, 03:38:19 PM
I'm not sure I like salew, the only example I could find of it being used uses it more like "to leave" than the given gloss. Also, I think that morphological solutions are generally the most elegant although that's very subjective.

uh how about

oe solalew zìsìt amevopey
I have proceeded 19 years.

i see it more of a proceed as in move along.

I forgot about that. That's a very idiomatic phrase though that may not have any literal interpretation although is certainly closer to what the modal would imply.

Quote from: wm.annis on November 25, 2010, 05:29:50 PM
Quote from: kewnya txamew'itan on November 25, 2010, 03:38:19 PMAlso, I think that morphological solutions are generally the most elegant although that's very subjective.

To "keep doing something" is an aspect.  But Frommer has already said, "no more infixes."  So, we should expect paraphrasis (i.e., helping verbs) for things like this in the future.

No more infixes doesn't mean no more morphological solutions, we've already seen <iv> taken on numerous other functions, why couldn't <er> and <ol> bloat a little to (and in this case, <irv> seems natural to me). On a tangential note, do you know if he was talking about completely new infixes or whether he also wasn't going to introduce new combinations (like <irv>/<arm> etc.).

Quote from: Muzer on November 25, 2010, 06:16:35 PM
Offtopic, but I think you've been studying too much Na'vi recently - you structured that quotation just like you would in Na'vi ;)


wm.annis' first quote wouldn't use san/sìk though, it would use "alu" instead (assumes you were talking about annis).
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Tirea Aean

#16
Quote from: kewnya txamew'itan on November 26, 2010, 01:51:18 AM

I forgot about that. That's a very idiomatic phrase though that may not have any literal interpretation although is certainly closer to what the modal would imply.

I see.

Quote from: kewnya txamew'itan on November 26, 2010, 01:51:18 AM
No more infixes doesn't mean no more morphological solutions, we've already seen <iv> taken on numerous other functions, why couldn't <er> and <ol> bloat a little to (and in this case, <irv> seems natural to me). On a tangential note, do you know if he was talking about completely new infixes or whether he also wasn't going to introduce new combinations (like <irv>/<arm> etc.).

Im pretty sure no more infixes means no more infixes. no completely new ones, and no new combinations.

really?? <er> meaning to keep doing something?

oe kerä. I am going. I keep going.

I dont know dude. i dont like that. just makes things ambiguous and require further explanation. I vote new root for "keep" meaning "continue to do".

EDIT: plus, if you make <irv> into the "keep" infix, then how do we distinguish between:

nìrangal nga zirva'u
O if only you would be coming

or

O if only you would keep coming

??

Muzer

Quote from: kewnya txamew'itan on November 26, 2010, 01:51:18 AM
wm.annis' first quote wouldn't use san/sìk though, it would use "alu" instead (assumes you were talking about annis).

I was referring to his second quote ;)
[21:42:56] <@Muzer> Apple products used to be good, if expensive
[21:42:59] <@Muzer> now they are just expensive

wm.annis

Quote from: Tirea Aean on November 26, 2010, 02:11:00 AM
Quote from: kewnya txamew'itan on November 26, 2010, 01:51:18 AM
No more infixes doesn't mean no more morphological solutions, we've already seen <iv> taken on numerous other functions, why couldn't <er> and <ol> bloat a little to (and in this case, <irv> seems natural to me). On a tangential note, do you know if he was talking about completely new infixes or whether he also wasn't going to introduce new combinations (like <irv>/<arm> etc.).

Im pretty sure no more infixes means no more infixes. no completely new ones, and no new combinations.

Correct.  I'm 95% sure I remember him specifically saying no new infixes or infix blends.

I really don't like ‹irv› for this at all.  The ‹iv› forms are a mood.  We're discussing an aspect.

I had other business to discuss with Frommer.  I attached this question at the end of the email.  :)  We'll see what he has to say,

kewnya txamew'itan

Quote from: Tirea Aean on November 26, 2010, 02:11:00 AM
Quote from: kewnya txamew'itan on November 26, 2010, 01:51:18 AM
No more infixes doesn't mean no more morphological solutions, we've already seen <iv> taken on numerous other functions, why couldn't <er> and <ol> bloat a little to (and in this case, <irv> seems natural to me). On a tangential note, do you know if he was talking about completely new infixes or whether he also wasn't going to introduce new combinations (like <irv>/<arm> etc.).

Im pretty sure no more infixes means no more infixes. no completely new ones, and no new combinations.

really?? <er> meaning to keep doing something?

oe kerä. I am going. I keep going.


I dont know dude. i dont like that. just makes things ambiguous and require further explanation. I vote new root for "keep" meaning "continue to do".

EDIT: plus, if you make <irv> into the "keep" infix, then how do we distinguish between:

nìrangal nga zirva'u
O if only you would be coming

or

O if only you would keep coming

??

1. That's what I thought, just checking that there wouldn't be an <iryev> any time soon.

As for "nìrangal nga zirva'u", that's the difference between a habitual and imperfective whereas keep learning is imperfective as learning is a continuous as opposed to discrete process (at least in my mind), using it with za'u, I think it would retain the first meaning alone, but with continuous actions like learning, "to keep learning" seems to me just to be a more idiomatic translation to English than "to be learning" (in the subjunctive at least, in the present indicative, probably not).


Quote from: wm.annis on November 26, 2010, 10:44:12 AM
Quote from: Tirea Aean on November 26, 2010, 02:11:00 AM
Quote from: kewnya txamew'itan on November 26, 2010, 01:51:18 AM
No more infixes doesn't mean no more morphological solutions, we've already seen <iv> taken on numerous other functions, why couldn't <er> and <ol> bloat a little to (and in this case, <irv> seems natural to me). On a tangential note, do you know if he was talking about completely new infixes or whether he also wasn't going to introduce new combinations (like <irv>/<arm> etc.).

Im pretty sure no more infixes means no more infixes. no completely new ones, and no new combinations.

Correct.  I'm 95% sure I remember him specifically saying no new infixes or infix blends.

I really don't like ‹irv› for this at all.  The ‹iv› forms are a mood.  We're discussing an aspect.

I had other business to discuss with Frommer.  I attached this question at the end of the email.  :)  We'll see what he has to say,

"Keep learning" certainly has an aspectual facet (which is in my mind covered by <er>), but it is in either the imperative or optative mood of that aspect hence my use of <iv>.
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