'ia and agape

[`Eylan Ayfalulukanä]

They describe different things. Muntxatu describes your mate and, as the na'vi mate for life, this would be closest to husband/wife/unmarried-life-partner whilst yawntu is simply a beloved person, depending on which love "tìyawn"  is, this may include or be limited to family members and close friends, that said, I believe that, given things Frommer has said in the past, it includes eros and therefore a yawntu would refer to any partner and would be best applied to girl/boyfriends (although not, I believe to more casual relations such as friends-with-benefits).

I wonder, then, if in the future, we will see a word that describes the greek 'Agape' kind of love, a selfless, unconditional love that arises (as one possible example and topical here), out of a longstanding, good married relationship. I think we already have kind of a term for 'Phileo' kind of love in terms like Ma smukan/smuke.

[Kì'eyawn]

They describe different things. Muntxatu describes your mate and, as the na'vi mate for life, this would be closest to husband/wife/unmarried-life-partner whilst yawntu is simply a beloved person, depending on which love "tìyawn"  is, this may include or be limited to family members and close friends, that said, I believe that, given things Frommer has said in the past, it includes eros and therefore a yawntu would refer to any partner and would be best applied to girl/boyfriends (although not, I believe to more casual relations such as friends-with-benefits).

I wonder, then, if in the future, we will see a word that describes the greek 'Agape' kind of love, a selfless, unconditional love that arises (as one possible example and topical here), out of a longstanding, good married relationship. I think we already have kind of a term for 'Phileo' kind of love in terms like Ma smukan/smuke.

Tì'efumì oeyä, i expect a word that matches onto Greek agape would be derived in some way from the Na'vi verb 'ia—but don't quote me on that 

[`Eylan Ayfalulukanä]

I wonder, then, if in the future, we will see a word that describes the greek 'Agape' kind of love, a selfless, unconditional love that arises (as one possible example and topical here), out of a longstanding, good married relationship. I think we already have kind of a term for 'Phileo' kind of love in terms like Ma smukan/smuke.

Tì'efumì oeyä, i expect a word that matches onto Greek agape would be derived in some way from the Na'vi verb 'ia—but don't quote me on that 

I won't quote you on that, but 'ia would be interesting, especially from a spiritual sense-- lost in His love. But in the sense I have seen Agape used, it kind of means 'selfless love'. So perhaps kea oe(a) tìyawn or perhaps kea sneyä tìyawn

[Kì'eyawn]

...I won't quote you on that, but 'ia would be interesting, especially from a spiritual sense-- lost in His love. But in the sense I have seen Agape used, it kind of means 'selfless love'...

Exactly.  'ia = "to lose oneself"—or, as i see it, to lose the sense of self.  To my mind, 'ia is close to the Eastern Orthodox concept of kenosis, or "self-emptying," which as i understand is thought of as the path to identification and union with Christ—specifically in His capacity for love (agape, i would think).

So, i figure any Na'vi concept based around selflessness is at least going to have -(')ia- as a syllable in it.

[`Eylan Ayfalulukanä]

...I won't quote you on that, but 'ia would be interesting, especially from a spiritual sense-- lost in His love. But in the sense I have seen Agape used, it kind of means 'selfless love'...

Exactly.  'ia = "to lose oneself"—or, as i see it, to lose the sense of self.  To my mind, 'ia is close to the Eastern Orthodox concept of kenosis, or "self-emptying," which as i understand is thought of as the path to identification and union with Christ—specifically in His capacity for love (agape, i would think).

So, i figure any Na'vi concept based around selflessness is at least going to have -(')ia- as a syllable in it.

I never thought of 'lose onseslf' quite the way you are talking about it here. Rather than emptying, I thought of 'losing onesef' is being fully immersed in the spirit world. You haven't emptied yourself, but on the contrary, you are overwhelmed by what is going on around you. (This is a good question for K. Pawl.)

I believe it was you who has previously mentioned kenosis. Now, I know what it is. (Do you have an Eastern Orthodox background? I have had just a brief exposure to Eastern Orthodoxy, in the form of a friend of mine who was taking a comparative Christian practices course in College.)

Meditation is a practice that is encouraged of Christians, as a means of drawing closer to God. This kind of meditation is more in the form of study and prayer, than of what we sometimes think of meditation in Far Eastern religions. In any case, I will have to look up kenosis this evening in my Greek lexicon.

[Kì'eyawn]

...I won't quote you on that, but 'ia would be interesting, especially from a spiritual sense-- lost in His love. But in the sense I have seen Agape used, it kind of means 'selfless love'...

Exactly.  'ia = "to lose oneself"—or, as i see it, to lose the sense of self.  To my mind, 'ia is close to the Eastern Orthodox concept of kenosis, or "self-emptying," which as i understand is thought of as the path to identification and union with Christ—specifically in His capacity for love (agape, i would think).

So, i figure any Na'vi concept based around selflessness is at least going to have -(')ia- as a syllable in it.

I never thought of 'lose onseslf' quite the way you are talking about it here. Rather than emptying, I thought of 'losing onesef' is being fully immersed in the spirit world. You haven't emptied yourself, but on the contrary, you are overwhelmed by what is going on around you. (This is a good question for K. Pawl.)

I believe it was you who has previously mentioned kenosis. Now, I know what it is. (Do you have an Eastern Orthodox background? I have had just a brief exposure to Eastern Orthodoxy, in the form of a friend of mine who was taking a comparative Christian practices course in College.)

Meditation is a practice that is encouraged of Christians, as a means of drawing closer to God. This kind of meditation is more in the form of study and prayer, than of what we sometimes think of meditation in Far Eastern religions. In any case, I will have to look up kenosis this evening in my Greek lexicon.

Ma 'Eylan, i very much want to continue this discussion, but so as not to derail the thread anymore i'll reply in a PM.  Pìyevlltxeie ye'rìn 

[kewnya txamew'itan]

The discussion was relevant to the community as a whole (and, even though I haven't posted on it yet, interests me), feel free to discuss it to your heart's content.

[`Eylan Ayfalulukanä]

Thanks for thread-ifying this.  `ia is one of those interesting words I have wanted to explore further in writing, etc. And though a lot of different belief systems are represented here, I think all of them understand or experience spirituality to some extent.

Also, Kì`eyawn had already asked K. Pawl the question I was suggesting, the day before!

[Kì'eyawn]

Kaltxì frapoya,

So, 'Eylan Ayfalulukanä and i have had a few exchanges concerning this topic via PM; but with 'Eylan's permission i'm bringing it back to the public forum so that we can all continue the discussion together.  Apologies for the delay; between the Thanksgiving holiday here in the U.S. and some other goings-on it's been a busy weekend.

a brief tangent:  As i'm sure you're all aware, we in the Na'vi community come from many different religious traditions.  I hope it goes without saying that we should all treat each other with appreciation and respect, but i just wanted to remind everyone.  I find this to be a fascinating topic, and one that i think extends throughout many cultures, and am interested in learning about it from other perspectives.

...My background's not in Eastern Orthodoxy, but a very dear friend of mine introduced me to it.  For some reason, amidst our conversations the concept of kenosis really stuck with me; and i've since come to the conclusion that it (or something like it) shows up in contemplative practices of most religions (I'll expound in a moment).

Hmm...  Christian meditation is very different from Buddhist meditation, but it's not so different from some forms of Hindu meditation—but that's because they too have forms of meditation centered on God and scripture.  Although, i remember coming across this delightful snippet from an interview with Mother Teresa in which she basically said that her prayer time was more like her and God resting in "mutual silence," which comes very close to Japanese zazen in some ways 

That is very interesting. As I am sure you are aware, Christianity is all about relating to God, rather than a dread fear-like state. Mother Theresa was a profoundly spiritual person. Her view of 'mutual silence' is quite interesting. I tend to have spiritual moments that are just the opposite-- 'loud and noisy (spiritually)'. And most people that are Christians do not talk about the silence they experience in meditation. That said, there is is a passage in Psalms (46:10) "Be still and know that I am God."

Regarding what you said earlier about not being emptied so much as overwhelmed:  If i understand correctly, the point of kenosis (or, at least, its equivalent in other religious traditions) is that one leads to the other.  What's that line in Galatians?  "I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me."  As i understand it, the process of self-emptying (i think in some traditions it's referred to a little more dramatically as "ego death") leaves one open to the influence of Divine will.

That would be Galatians 2:20. 'Ego death' is a better way to describe this, rather than 'emptying oneself'. Yet the whole idea of being a Christian is being submitted to the will of God (which I struggle with a lot!). However, God is not out to erase our personalities, just those parts of us that do not line up with Him. That is the part of the meaning of this passage. But in any case, you are definitely catching the vision.

Yes, i may not have done a good job of making that clear earlier.  Some authors differentiate between "self" and "Self," with the idea being that the former is that which is lost in surrendering to Divinity, Buddha nature, etc., while the latter is what remains when the individual has entered a state of perfect submission.  Ego death doesn't mean that everyone becomes the same, but rather that everyone fulfills the height of their spiritual potential.

There's a story in Hinduism that i think conveys the idea fairly well.  The story goes that there was an incarnation of Vishnu named Krishna who, amongst other things, spent his boyhood herding cows and playing his flute.  The gopis—the cow-herding girls—stole Krishna's flute one day and demanded to know what was so special about it that Krishna would show it such affection.

"You're just a piece of wood, and not even an attractive piece of wood.  You're very plain, and knotty; you're hollow and full of holes!  Why, then, does Krishna cherish your company?"
And the flute answered, "Yes, i'm plain and unremarkable, but i have allowed Krishna to empty me completely; and it is because i have been emptied of myself that he can breath life into me, and make his music through me."

Now, I am beginning to see your point. Krishna was referring to the same 'ego death' here. 'The flute' was losing himself to the player (without not being a flute) so that the player could make beautiful music. This is something that takes faith to do!

There scripture passages (and I can't think of where they are, right now) where people that were before the Lord became emptied out. They fell at His feet because they could not stand, and experienced an 'emptying' before God, because He is so pure.

I'm not a Krishna devotee, but i do love that story about the flute.  I've also heard a related story that talks about when the reed was first plucked from its bed and Krishna began to carve it the reed lamented loudly that it was suffering, and that Krishna was cruel to take it from all that it knew and all it had been, and demanded why he would do such a terrible thing. 

"Soon, you will see," was all Krishna said.

Then, of course, the first time Krishna played upon it the reed became a flute, and after experiencing the music that Krishna made through it the flute never wanted to be a reed again.

So, the story goes, through surrendering to God—"not my will, but Thine, be done"—one gradually "loses oneself" in the flow of the will of God.  I think (but i'm likely wrong) that it was St. Francis who talked of it in terms of going from seeing oneself as a servant of God, imperfectly following God's will, to an instrument of God, perfectly obeying divine will because an instrument has no will of its own.

And indeed, there is a song attributed (I think)to St. Francis that say 'Lord, make me an instrument of your peace'.
What you are describing here is exactly what I think 'ia should describe. Just like an instrument submits to the player, it remains an instrument, and has all the characteristics of that instrument. A good player can push a musical instrument beyond its limits, and make new (and often wonderful) sounds. God stretches us that way, sometimes.

Yes, i think that's often called "The Peace Prayer of St. Francis."  My grandmother had a framed picture with the text when i was little, i memorized it.  It's by far one of my favorite pieces of spiritual writing.  When we have more of the necessary words, i'd like to translate it into Na'vi 

I have had one really profound `ia experience in my life, and it completely changed my life. Back in 2001, I was in deep mourning for an acquaintance of mine who had had his favorite lion die on him, a slow, agonizing death of cancer. I felt competely heartbroken for this person, as well as the cat. In a totally overwhelming experience, the Lord let me 'meet' the spirit of this lion. This was a wonderful expereince, and it was the first time in my life (I did not work with cats yet, but I was getting ready to) that I felt a living creature show so much love. One of the things I learned that night was that the love that we get from animals is very close to God's pure love. Ever since that time,  have been able to discern the spirits of big cats, and occasionally other animals. My ability to do this has helped my pray two terminally ill cats back to life. In other instances, this ability has allowed cats that did die to have 'strength for the journey' into (what I am sure of) the next life. This, BTW, is why 'Avatar' had such a profound effect on me.

Wow, that's really interesting.  I find it interesting that your 'ia experience involved a feeling of connection with another being; my sense is that 'ia is all about interconnectedness 

As for me...  Music has always been a very spiritual thing for me.  My senior year in college, i got to perform Handel's Messiah.  I grew up with that music at the center of my family's Christmas celebrations every year, so it's very dear to me.  Anyway, we had gotten to the famous Hallelujah chorus, which is already a very moving piece to me, and while we were singing i had this suddenly keen awareness of the way my single voice blended and disappeared into the hundreds of other voices in the choir, how those voices melded with the orchestra, and how that whole sound was absorbed and shaped and changed by the acoustics of the church... 

Before that, recognition of my "smallness" and relative insignificance in the vastness of the cosmos has been a frightening experience; but this time, i had this...awareness of how i was one small but integral part of a much larger whole, of how the whole system would be fundamentally changed were i to step back and remove myself from it...  I knew that even the finest ear would have difficulty discerning my voice in the midst of that—in fact, in a good choir the point is to blend all the voices together without any one standing out.  I lost my individuality, in a sense; but at the same time, what i became a part of was so much more, so much greater, than what i could be on my own.  I found myself indescribably happy to lose myself in service to the larger, grander thing that came into being as a result, and i had the sense that this is always the way of things—but usually we aren't able to see that "Big Picture." 

The next semester a rabbi told me a story from Buddhism (although it's rooted in Hinduism) called Indra's Net, which gets at this idea rather well (i'd be happy to tell it in a later post, if you like, but it gets a little tangential to the topic at hand).  At any rate, i'd say that was my most profound 'ia moment 

[`Eylan Ayfalulukanä]

I'm not a Krishna devotee, but i do love that story about the flute.  I've also heard a related story that talks about when the reed was first plucked from its bed and Krishna began to carve it the reed lamented loudly that it was suffering, and that Krishna was cruel to take it from all that it knew and all it had been, and demanded why he would do such a terrible thing.

As for me...  Music has always been a very spiritual thing for me.  My senior year in college, i got to perform Handel's Messiah.  I grew up with that music at the center of my family's Christmas celebrations every year, so it's very dear to me.  Anyway, we had gotten to the famous Hallelujah chorus, which is already a very moving piece to me, and while we were singing i had this suddenly keen awareness of the way my single voice blended and disappeared into the hundreds of other voices in the choir, how those voices melded with the orchestra, and how that whole sound was absorbed and shaped and changed by the acoustics of the church...   

Very interesting! It just so happens that I have an ethnic flute sitting here next to me, that I have been messing around with from time to time. So, I can relate to the flute story.

I, too experience the `ia experience with music. It sounds like both of us have a background in classical and sacred music. Although I am not really 'choir material' (I more properly belong at the mixing console for sound reinforcement/recording/broadcast), I have sung in a good choir, and even done several selections from The Messiah. (We also have 'Sing it yourself Messiahs, here and I participate every chance I get. I have the complete Messiah on my phone!) The experience of singing in a choir, or even participating as an audio engineer, is definitely one of 'being lost spiritually' or maybe more precisely 'being immersed spiritually'. The experience can become very 'real' for some people, especially for children, whos 'cup is still empty'. During one of these choral performances some years back, several children saw an angel standing behind the conductor!

On Friday, I went to an organ concert a local church (with a big organ, at least for Nevada). The organist that day is a good friend of mine (David Brock). With the understanding of this thread, it was very easy to experience `ia with his music, especially with Oliver Messiaen's (notice the 'ia' in his name!) 'Apparition de  l`Eglise Eternelle'. This a brooding piece, of massive chords that resolve themselves from dark dissonace to brilliant, pure consonance.

Wow, that's really interesting.  I find it interesting that your 'ia experience involved a feeling of connection with another being; my sense is that 'ia is all about interconnectedness  Smiley

This is so very true. I have a friend who has studied this interconnectedness, and has helped me experience it better. He, too has found this through big cats he works with. http://www.tigertouch.org But, he also can see this in so many other areas-- our relationships with each other, our relationships with Deity, etc. (Relationships with nature fit here too, and he is a strong believer in what he calls the 'Gaia System'. And Eywa is defined as a Pandoran Gaia.)

To tie these areas together, and begin to head towards a 'cultural conclusion', here is a story that ties together both connectedness and music.

About a year ago, I had to deal with a lion who was dying of kidney failure. This was a really sweet male lion who had become a special friend. This was a quiet relationship of love and trust, and it was now being put to an extreme test. We had to euthanize him, which is probably the worst nightmare of any animal person. But before we did this (I (fortunately and unfortunately) have to assist the vets with this kind of work), I had the last 90 minutes of his life completely alone with him (which wasn't supposed to happen, but it was 'Yawey's provision' for this special life). I was able to give this sick cat a period of time when he was able to let his guard down and feel completely safe (This is very hard to a lion to do, as they are so protective by nature). This made what we had to do next very much easier. We wrapped his body for burial in cloth of royal colors fit for a king. I left after this was done.

Within an hour, I could really 'feel' this lion's spirit, and I sensed him very strongly, off and on, for about two weeks. But one of the most profound experiences came when I was attending a performance of Faure's Requiem a few days after the lion had died. This performance was in remembrance of 9-11, but it worked for me on a much higher level.

First of all, this was the finest performance of this work I have ever heard, offered with pure enthusiasm by a local music group. This alone was an `ia experience. But what was more amazing was sensing this lion sitting next to me in the pew, listening with me (Something I am sure he would have enjoyed if he was still physically alive). I will never forget this as long as I live. It was a combination of what you are talking about and what I have talked about.

Now, let's bring this all back to the Na`vi. Based on what we (directly in the film) saw of their relationship to living things, and what we read (see indirectly) about in terms of what they have for instruments (and words for) music, we see plenty of room for `ia. Combine this with their ability to physically 'connect' to Eywa and 'experience' their ancestors (and animals as well), and we can see that `ia is not only important, but plays a central role in Na`vi society. I know a lot of this is fringing on JC's ground. And I hope we get to see more of it in future films and derivative works.

In any case, `ia plays an important role in just about every religion I can think of, and even in 'non-religions'. Hopefully with time (and the new word creation project), we can find the words, and the experiences to allow us sawtutes to experience `ia in a new and deeper way. Language and culture are intertwined with each other, and there is no finer example than `ia.