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Offline Stranger Come Knocking

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Regarding some of the most basic question sentences
« on: March 01, 2011, 04:00:47 pm »
So then, can anyone break down these really simple past tense sentences for me (in English first, please)? (ie Identify subject and other parts of speech etc.)

"Where were you?"
Situation: I didn't expect you to be gone, but you left.  And now you've returned, and I'm asking where you've been.
Alternate question: "Where have you been?"
Present tense: Tsungpe lu nga? (But I'm not sure on this either)
What I think: Tsungpe nga lamu?

"When was it?"
Situation: You went to an event (we'll say I didn't know about it) and you're telling me all about it and I want to know when it happened.
Alternate question: "When did this happen/take place?"
Present tense: Krrpe lu tsaw? (Again, not sure about this)
What I think: Krrpe tsaw lamu?

"How was it?"
Situation: You went to an event (I knew about it, but didn't accompany you) and I am curious to know how it was.
Alternate question: "How did it go?"
Present tense: Fyape lu tsaw? (Unsure)
What I think: Fyape tsaw lamu?

"Which is it?"
Situation: You can't make up your mind about something and I am getting very irritated about it.
Alternate question: "WELL?!"
What I think: "'Úpe?!"

Well, I'm not going to list all of them; I think you get the idea.  If someone could break these down for me, it would be much appreciated.  And any other questions you can think of that fall along these lines.  :)


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Offline Kemaweyan

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Re: Regarding some of the most basic question sentences
« Reply #1 on: March 01, 2011, 04:09:56 pm »
"Where were you?"
Situation: I didn't expect you to be gone, but you left.  And now you've returned, and I'm asking where you've been.
Alternate question: "Where have you been?"
Present tense: Tsungpe lu nga? (But I'm not sure on this either)
What I think: Tsungpe nga lamu?

Yeah, infix -am- is correct here :) But for physical locations use transitive verb tok:

  Tsengpet ngal tamok?

"When was it?"
Situation: You went to an event (we'll say I didn't know about it) and you're telling me all about it and I want to know when it happened.
Alternate question: "When did this happen/take place?"
Present tense: Krrpe lu tsaw? (Again, not sure about this)
What I think: Krrpe tsaw lamu?

"How was it?"
Situation: You went to an event (I knew about it, but didn't accompany you) and I am curious to know how it was.
Alternate question: "How did it go?"
Present tense: Fyape lu tsaw? (Unsure)
What I think: Fyape tsaw lamu?

Excellent! ;)

"Which is it?"
Situation: You can't make up your mind about something and I am getting very irritated about it.
Alternate question: "WELL?!"
What I think: "'Úpe?!"

I think it should be 'Upe tsaw lu?
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Offline Stranger Come Knocking

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Re: Regarding some of the most basic question sentences
« Reply #2 on: March 01, 2011, 04:20:44 pm »

Yeah, infix -am- is correct here :) But for physical locations use transitive verb tok:

  Tsengpet ngal tamok?

>.< n00b typo.  So Ngal is the subject, tamok is...Actually, not quite sure what it would be labelled as...And tsengpe is the object?

Excellent! ;)

 ;D

I think it should be 'Upe tsaw lu?

Makes sense. *nods*


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Offline Kemaweyan

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Re: Regarding some of the most basic question sentences
« Reply #3 on: March 01, 2011, 04:24:09 pm »
So Ngal is the subject, tamok is...Actually, not quite sure what it would be labelled as...And tsengpe is the object?

Yeah :) "What place" is the object.
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Offline Stranger Come Knocking

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Re: Regarding some of the most basic question sentences
« Reply #4 on: March 01, 2011, 04:29:21 pm »
So then if I wanted to ask "Who was that?" it would be "Tupet lamu tsal?"


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Offline Kemaweyan

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Re: Regarding some of the most basic question sentences
« Reply #5 on: March 01, 2011, 04:34:51 pm »
No, lu is intransitive verb.
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Offline Stranger Come Knocking

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Re: Regarding some of the most basic question sentences
« Reply #6 on: March 01, 2011, 05:04:48 pm »
What would it be, then? >.>


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Offline Nyx

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Re: Regarding some of the most basic question sentences
« Reply #7 on: March 01, 2011, 05:37:36 pm »

Yeah, infix -am- is correct here :) But for physical locations use transitive verb tok:

  Tsengpet ngal tamok?

>.< n00b typo.  So Ngal is the subject, tamok is...Actually, not quite sure what it would be labelled as...And tsengpe is the object?
Tamok is past tense of the transitive verb tok = to be (physically, at a place)

So then if I wanted to ask "Who was that?" it would be "Tupet lamu tsal?"
"Tupe lu tsatute?"

Lu is intransitive and tok is transitive, this means that lu only has the unmarked subject (for the person doing the action, here, being) and tok has an agent (the one doing the action, marked with -l) and a patient (the receiver of this action, marked with -ti/-it). Basically, if there's an object (if the action is done to someone/something), the verb is transitive and the nouns around it take case markers. The dictionary can help you find out what verbs are transitive or not.

Also, I went with tsatute because tsaw seems a little off when talking about people as it really means "that thing", tsatute means "that person". You could also just go with po for "(s)he".

Hope that clarifies it a bit :)

Offline Stranger Come Knocking

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Re: Regarding some of the most basic question sentences
« Reply #8 on: March 01, 2011, 05:48:33 pm »
Tamok is past tense of the transitive verb tok = to be (physically, at a place)

That makes sense.

So then if I wanted to ask "Who was that?" it would be "Tupet lamu tsal?"
"Tupe lu tsatute?"

Lu is intransitive and tok is transitive, this means that lu only has the unmarked subject (for the person doing the action, here, being) and tok has an agent (the one doing the action, marked with -l) and a patient (the receiver of this action, marked with -ti/-it). Basically, if there's an object (if the action is done to someone/something), the verb is transitive and the nouns around it take case markers. The dictionary can help you find out what verbs are transitive or not.

Also, I went with tsatute because tsaw seems a little off when talking about people as it really means "that thing", tsatute means "that person". You could also just go with po for "(s)he".

Hope that clarifies it a bit :)

Um...not really. @[email protected] I mean, I get the last part about using "that vs. s/he", but you lost me in the explanation of lu and tok.  I mean, if my friend is talking to someone I don't know and I talk to my friend afterward, all I want to ask is "Who was that (you were just talking to)?"  I fail to see how tok plays a role if it means a literal, physical place to be.  :-\


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Offline Nyx

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Re: Regarding some of the most basic question sentences
« Reply #9 on: March 01, 2011, 06:08:36 pm »
I used tok there as an example mostly to show the difference between transitive and intransitive verbs (I thought it'd help you see why there were case markers in one example but not in the other).

You should definitely use lu when asking "who is that?", you got that right :) sorry for the confusion

Offline Stranger Come Knocking

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Re: Regarding some of the most basic question sentences
« Reply #10 on: March 01, 2011, 06:13:29 pm »
I used tok there as an example mostly to show the difference between transitive and intransitive verbs (I thought it'd help you see why there were case markers in one example but not in the other).

You should definitely use lu when asking "who is that?", you got that right :) sorry for the confusion
Phew. -.- Don't scare me like that.  ;)

Irayo fpitìoeyktìng. (Did I at least get that right?)


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Offline Kemaweyan

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Re: Regarding some of the most basic question sentences
« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2011, 07:03:05 pm »
So then if I wanted to ask "Who was that?" it would be "Tupet lamu tsal?"
"Tupe lu tsatute?"

Right, but if there is past tense, use infix -am-:

  Tupe lamu tsatute?

Irayo fpitìoeyktìng. (Did I at least get that right?)

No :) Tìoeyktìngìri irayo.

And there is always lenition after fpi, i.e. fpi + tìoeyktìng shoul be fpi sìoeyktìng.
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Offline Stranger Come Knocking

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Re: Regarding some of the most basic question sentences
« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2011, 07:06:25 pm »

Irayo fpitìoeyktìng. (Did I at least get that right?)

No :) Tìoeyktìngìri irayo.

And there is always lenition after fpi, i.e. fpi + tìoeyktìng shoul be fpi sìoeyktìng.

Okay, I get it.  Irayo. :)

Somewhat-related question: Would Tx ever lenit twice in a word? tx -> t -> s


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Offline Kemaweyan

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Re: Regarding some of the most basic question sentences
« Reply #13 on: March 01, 2011, 07:19:51 pm »
No, double lenition never happens :) Even if there are, for example, adposition (it causes lenition) and plural (ay but we can omit than and use just a lenition):

  mì-ay-txon = mì ton (not mì son)

Of course, there is some ambiguity: mì ton could mean at night and at nights too. But usually the meaning is clear from the context.. See more here.
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Offline Txonä Unil Stä'nìyu Rolyusì

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Re: Regarding some of the most basic question sentences
« Reply #14 on: March 02, 2011, 03:29:12 am »
No, double lenition never happens :) Even if there are, for example, adposition (it causes lenition) and plural (ay but we can omit than and use just a lenition):

  mì-ay-txon = mì ton (not mì son)

Of course, there is some ambiguity: mì ton could mean at night and at nights too. But usually the meaning is clear from the context.. See more here.

There is a way to avoid this ambiguity here. Because mì+ is an adposition, it can simply be attached to the end of txon making it "txonmì." That's the cool thing about adpositions is that if you're unsure if they cause lenition or not or you know that they do and want to avoid ambiguity like this, you can attach them to the end of your word :)

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Offline Kemaweyan

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Re: Regarding some of the most basic question sentences
« Reply #15 on: March 02, 2011, 10:59:47 am »
There is a way to avoid this ambiguity here. Because mì+ is an adposition, it can simply be attached to the end of txon making it "txonmì." That's the cool thing about adpositions is that if you're unsure if they cause lenition or not or you know that they do and want to avoid ambiguity like this, you can attach them to the end of your word :)

-Txonä Rolyu

Sure. But mì ton also is possible and when you hear it, you should remember that it could mean not only "at night" (singular). In this case you can't attach to the end of txon, because you hear it, not speak :)
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Offline Txonä Unil Stä'nìyu Rolyusì

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Re: Regarding some of the most basic question sentences
« Reply #16 on: March 02, 2011, 03:35:42 pm »
There is a way to avoid this ambiguity here. Because mì+ is an adposition, it can simply be attached to the end of txon making it "txonmì." That's the cool thing about adpositions is that if you're unsure if they cause lenition or not or you know that they do and want to avoid ambiguity like this, you can attach them to the end of your word :)

-Txonä Rolyu

Sure. But mì ton also is possible and when you hear it, you should remember that it could mean not only "at night" (singular). In this case you can't attach to the end of txon, because you hear it, not speak :)

I...don't understand what you mean there. Especially the last sentence.

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Offline Stranger Come Knocking

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Re: Regarding some of the most basic question sentences
« Reply #17 on: March 02, 2011, 03:38:18 pm »
There is a way to avoid this ambiguity here. Because mì+ is an adposition, it can simply be attached to the end of txon making it "txonmì." That's the cool thing about adpositions is that if you're unsure if they cause lenition or not or you know that they do and want to avoid ambiguity like this, you can attach them to the end of your word :)

-Txonä Rolyu

Sure. But mì ton also is possible and when you hear it, you should remember that it could mean not only "at night" (singular). In this case you can't attach to the end of txon, because you hear it, not speak :)

I...don't understand what you mean there. Especially the last sentence.

-Txonä Rolyu

I must agree.  ???

But thank you for adding a lovely adp. alternative, ma Txonä Rolyu.  :) It just made my life a bit easier.


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Offline Carborundum

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Re: Regarding some of the most basic question sentences
« Reply #18 on: March 02, 2011, 03:51:39 pm »
Kemaweyan's point is that you can't affect how other people speak to you, and if they say mì ton, you must keep the ambiguity in mind.
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Re: Regarding some of the most basic question sentences
« Reply #19 on: March 02, 2011, 06:39:32 pm »
Kemaweyan's point is that you can't affect how other people speak to you, and if they say mì ton, you must keep the ambiguity in mind.

Ah, ok that makes sense. Goes back to what Kemaweyan said about the magic word: context ;)

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