Tatlam vs nìlam

Nyx · June 03, 2011, 06:34:36 PM

I just noticed that both tatlam and nìlam are adverbs meaning "apparently", but is there some distinction between them that I've missed? Maybe a difference in when they can be used?

Tirea Aean · June 03, 2011, 06:38:48 PM

They even appear to be derive from the same root...

ta tì-lam

nì-lam

as far as I can tell, they seem synonymous. Perhaps the same deal as tìtaron and tìtusaron.

'Oma Tirea · June 03, 2011, 11:44:13 PM

I have believed thus far that there is a subtle distinction to be made (unlike the case of na/pxel, as confirmed by Karyu Pawl), but very few can find it, and it seems to easily become lost....

Tirea Aean · June 04, 2011, 12:07:21 AM

Quote from: 'Oma Tirea on June 03, 2011, 11:44:13 PM
I have believed thus far that there is a subtle distinction to be made (unlike the case of na/pxel, as confirmed by Karyu Pawl), but very few can find it, and it seems to easily become lost....

you say this as if you know what that subtle distinction is. :\ hrh what are you not tellin us?

'Oma Tirea · June 04, 2011, 12:11:36 AM

The subtle distinction, of which I could not find

Tirea Aean · June 04, 2011, 12:43:56 AM

You either eh? I'd like to know as well the difference here. they literally are identical entries in the dictionary, much like pxel and na. we kinda assumed pxel and na were synonymous even up to when it was confirmed. perhaps we can do the same here until proven that they differ? kinda like when we didnt really know what mowan truly meant and how it's clearly different that prrte' (which took a little wihle to figure out)

Nyx · June 04, 2011, 01:57:09 AM

The two slightly different derivations (ta tì-lam and nì-lam) are what made me think there might be a distinction, though a very subtle one. But it could also just be nitpicking. We need a linguistics ninja here

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä · June 04, 2011, 04:33:02 AM

Quote from: Nyx on June 04, 2011, 01:57:09 AM
The two slightly different derivations (ta tì-lam and nì-lam) are what made me think there might be a distinction, though a very subtle one. But it could also just be nitpicking. We need a linguistics ninja here

tatìlam, fkot awngal kin

Carborundum · June 04, 2011, 05:02:39 AM

If there is a distinction, my guess would be that nìlam conveys a sense of uncertainty that tatlam does not.

Poan yawne latsu poeru nìlam.
Apparently she loves him.

Poan yawne lu poeru tatlam.
It is apparent that she loves him.

Maybe. Or they could just be synonyms.

Tanri · June 04, 2011, 01:09:24 PM

Quote from: Carborundum on June 04, 2011, 05:02:39 AM
If there is a distinction, my guess would be that nìlam conveys a sense of uncertainty that tatlam does not.
Poan yawne latsu poeru nìlam.
Apparently she loves him.
Poan yawne lu poeru tatlam.
It is apparent that she loves him.
Maybe. Or they could just be synonyms.

Quote from: Nyx on June 04, 2011, 01:57:09 AM
The two slightly different derivations (ta tì-lam and nì-lam) are what made me think there might be a distinction, though a very subtle one. But it could also just be nitpicking. We need a linguistics ninja here

Tì'efumì oeyä, lu tìyawr mengaru nìwotx, ma eylan

The key is hidden in the way of derivation of these.

nìlam = nì-lam
This adverb is derived directly from lam, and lam alone means "seem, appear". This verb has some level of uncertainty in itself ("it seems to me" versus "it is clear to me").
Thus, an adverb nìlam derived from it means "apparently", with the meaning: "As seems to me", "as appears to me".

tatlam = ta tìlam
Adverb tatlam is basically a compound word, derived from ta tìlam - "from the appearance", "from the look". The history and derivation of tìlam itself is not relevant to this case, because tìlam is just a noun "the appearance", "the look". There is no space for uncertainty or questions.
So, the translation of tatlam should be "evidently, obviously", with meaning "As from the appearance of something", because this adverb is based on concrete perception of the specific appearance, without uncertainty.

Tirea Aean · June 04, 2011, 04:59:23 PM

from the looks of it, it seems that things are looking clearer now. :p

Maria TunVrrtep · June 06, 2011, 08:17:06 AM

Quote from: Tirea Aean on June 04, 2011, 04:59:23 PM
from the looks of it, it seems that things are looking clearer now. :p

Awwww and I was going to say that it would make a good question for Karyu Pawl at the July 9 meeting.
Looks like someone figured it out.
Maybe I'll ask anyway. (in English since my Na'vi pronunciation really sucks!!!)

ta TV

Tirea Aean · June 06, 2011, 08:25:42 AM

please DO ask. confirmation is just as valuable as new material in my book.

someone cia-style that meetup! lol i wanna know what is said and whatnot :p

Maria TunVrrtep · June 06, 2011, 08:43:16 AM

Quote from: Tirea Aean on June 06, 2011, 08:25:42 AM
please DO ask. confirmation is just as valuable as new material in my book. someone cia-style that meetup! lol i wanna know what is said and whatnot :p

HRH already sent the q to Prrton. I'm waiting to hear back about it. However, does this look right?
Lì'u tatlam ulte lì'u nìlam ral "apparently". Rutxe Oeyktìng tìketeng, srak?
(The word tatlam and the word nìlam mean "apparently". Please, can you explain the difference?) I think it's right, but I have a feeling there's something missing, cause usually there's always something missing when I translate something. (Damn shame it's not in French. I could do that in a second.)

My pronunciation sucks, but I can go over that maybe in the Friday class if I ever manage to get to one.

What are your thoughts, Tirea?
ta TV

Sireayä mokri · June 06, 2011, 09:09:11 AM

It should be Melì'ur alu tatlam sì nìlam lu ral alu "apparently". Rutxe oeyktìng tìketengit.

Tirea Aean · June 06, 2011, 09:15:35 AM

Quote from: Sireayä mokri on June 06, 2011, 09:09:11 AM
It should be Melì'ur alu tatlam sì nìlam lu ral alu "apparently". Rutxe oeyktìng tìketengit.

Maria TunVrrtep · June 06, 2011, 02:30:37 PM

Quote from: Sireayä mokri on June 06, 2011, 09:09:11 AM
It should be Melì'ur alu tatlam sì nìlam lu ral alu "apparently". Rutxe oeyktìng tìketengit.

Thanks. I'll make those changes. HRH I knew it looked wrong where "ral" was. It was me forgetting to put the lu in.
DUH One question though. Why sì instead of ulte. I would think that since ulte connects two things that aren't the same, it would be ulte instead.
ta TV

Nyx · June 06, 2011, 02:48:18 PM

Quote from: TunVrrtep on June 06, 2011, 02:30:37 PM
Quote from: Sireayä mokri on June 06, 2011, 09:09:11 AM
It should be Melì'ur alu tatlam sì nìlam lu ral alu "apparently". Rutxe oeyktìng tìketengit.

Thanks. I'll make those changes. HRH I knew it looked wrong where "ral" was. It was me forgetting to put the lu in.
DUH One question though. Why sì instead of ulte. I would think that since ulte connects two things that aren't the same, it would be ulte instead.
ta TV

Another way to think of it is that ulte connects clauses and sì connects elements in a list (usually just words)

Oh and, irayo seiyi ma frapo

Maria TunVrrtep · June 06, 2011, 02:54:23 PM

Quote from: Nyx on June 06, 2011, 02:48:18 PM
Quote from: TunVrrtep on June 06, 2011, 02:30:37 PM
Quote from: Sireayä mokri on June 06, 2011, 09:09:11 AM
It should be Melì'ur alu tatlam sì nìlam lu ral alu "apparently". Rutxe oeyktìng tìketengit.

Thanks. I'll make those changes. HRH I knew it looked wrong where "ral" was. It was me forgetting to put the lu in.
DUH One question though. Why sì instead of ulte. I would think that since ulte connects two things that aren't the same, it would be ulte instead.
ta TV
Another way to think of it is that ulte connects clauses and sì connects elements in a list (usually just words)

Oh and, irayo seiyi ma frapo

Ohhhhhh Ok. Well that makes sense then.
ta TV