Author Topic: The way up the river....  (Read 1282 times)

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Offline Lisa

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The way up the river....
« on: January 05, 2011, 03:53:19 pm »
So I've decided to begin working on some sentence constructions, to help with grammar and vocabulary.   I'm trying to expand out from syulang lu ean and tskxe angul lu apxa to more meaningful and complex sentences.   So I'm trying to practice, practice, practice but seem to keep tripping up on a combination of low confidence and second guessing myself.  *sigh*

I want the sentence I'm trying to write to mean "the way up the river is blocked by the waterfall".  I realize we don't yet have a word for waterfall, but I'm trying to talk my way through it.    :)

Fya'o nefä kilvan lu lekxan fa apxa pay azusup.
way  up   river  is obstructed by large water falling

And here's some of my logic:

ekxan (n) - barricade, obstruction     --> le-ekxan -->  lekxan, hopefully a valid adjective meaning obstructed
zup (vin) - to fall   -->  z<us>up    -->  zusup, hopefully a participle meaning falling and used as an adjective
waterfall  -->  large falling water   -->   apxa pay azusup

And now I'm also wondering if perhaps I should use hultstxem somehow instead of lekxan and lu.   Fìkemìri zene oe fpivìl teri nì'ul. ???

Are there any horrible mistakes?  Glaring holes in my logic?  Better ways of saying it?   All help gratefully appreciated!  :)


I've had some serious family issues to deal with the past few months but hopefully most of that is past now (at least for a while) and I really want to get back to my Na'vi.    Irayo!  :)
Oeru syaw "Tirea Ikran" kop slä frakrrmi layu oe "Grammar Skxawng"   :)

Offline Kemaweyan

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Re: The way up the river....
« Reply #1 on: January 05, 2011, 04:57:07 pm »
Hmm.. sìltsan :) But nefä is an adverb, I'm not sure it's possible to use it as adposition. Perhaps it should be

  Fya'o alu nefä ìlä hilvan lu lekxan fa apxa pay azusup.

And yes, hultstxem seems more reasonable :) Or in another way:

  Fya'or alu nefä ìlä hilvan lu ekxan alu apxa pay azusup.

IMO :)
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Offline wm.annis

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Re: The way up the river....
« Reply #2 on: January 05, 2011, 05:06:53 pm »
Holy cow... your entire sentence is full of vocabulary I'm uncertain about.  Congratulations! :)

I will comment on things we do know.

First, when you modify a noun with a prepositional phrase, like "the way up the river," you should attach the prepositional phrase to the noun with attributive a.  Now, I am not comfortable using nefä for "up" in the sense of "up river."  Kemaweyan's use of an adverb with the adposition ìla is a clever dodge, but still has the same problem (nefä to me implying "upwards into the air") but for now we're stuck with it: fya'o a nefä ìlä hilvan.  I don't think there's any need for lu/alu.

Second, when you see yourself converting "is VERBed by ..." straight into Na'vi, something has gone wrong.  Na'vi does not have passive verbs (though it does have passive participles).  You should rephrase the verb into the active, "the waterfall blocks the way."
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A Na'vi Reference Grammar

Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: The way up the river....
« Reply #3 on: January 05, 2011, 05:12:37 pm »
Fìkemìri zene oe fpivìl teri nì'ul. ???

Are there any horrible mistakes?  Glaring holes in my logic?  Better ways of saying it?   All help gratefully appreciated!  :)


I've had some serious family issues to deal with the past few months but hopefully most of that is past now (at least for a while) and I really want to get back to my Na'vi.    Irayo!  :)

why use a topical and teri? that doesnt make sense... i usually say either

Fìkemìri zene oe fpivìl nì'ul

or

teri fìkem zene oe fpivìl nì'ul

as for the sentence you are coming up with earlier, i agree with Kemaweyan.

Or in another way:

  Fya'or alu nefä ìlä hilvan lu ekxan alu apxa pay azusup.

IMO :)

Fya'or a nefä ìlä hilvan lu ekxan alu apxa pay azusup
The path up river has a barrier, that is, a big falling water.

but like Annis there is something im not comfortable with and unsure of in there... great effort tho. and I admire your drive to create more useful and complete ideas with Na'vi: taking it to the level of communication. ;D

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Offline wm.annis

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Re: The way up the river....
« Reply #4 on: January 05, 2011, 05:16:26 pm »
Ooh, Tirea Aean brings up a point I wanted to mention but forgot...

In Na'vi, an adposition must be used with a pronoun or noun phrase.  You can't say things like "I went in" with the "in" just floating there with nothing to go with.
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Offline Lisa

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Re: The way up the river....
« Reply #5 on: January 05, 2011, 09:17:40 pm »
Hmm.. sìltsan :) But nefä is an adverb, I'm not sure it's possible to use it as adposition. Perhaps it should be

  Fya'o alu nefä ìlä hilvan lu lekxan fa apxa pay azusup.

And yes, hultstxem seems more reasonable :) Or in another way:

  Fya'or alu nefä ìlä hilvan lu ekxan alu apxa pay azusup.

IMO :)

*keytsyokx*   Silly me, I forgot that nefä is an adverb, and I see now that I was trying to use it as an adposition.  That pesky grammar.      :)

Your examples do make more sense.    Irayo!
Oeru syaw "Tirea Ikran" kop slä frakrrmi layu oe "Grammar Skxawng"   :)

Offline Lisa

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Re: The way up the river....
« Reply #6 on: January 05, 2011, 09:19:30 pm »
Holy cow... your entire sentence is full of vocabulary I'm uncertain about.  Congratulations! :)

Erm, not the effect I was going for, but probably does help explain why I keep having difficulties.   ;D


Quote
First, when you modify a noun with a prepositional phrase, like "the way up the river," you should attach the prepositional phrase to the noun with attributive a

Ah, okay, I think I understand.  The noun here being "the way" and the prepositional phrase being "up the river".   I seem to be so rigidly welded to English structure, but it's at such an instinctual level that I don't really notice and fully understand all the pieces.  Still.   Although I am slowly getting better... this does make sense.   Thanks for your explanations and for being so patient.  :)


Quote
Now, I am not comfortable using nefä for "up" in the sense of "up river."  Kemaweyan's use of an adverb with the adposition ìla is a clever dodge, but still has the same problem (nefä to me implying "upwards into the air") but for now we're stuck with it: fya'o a nefä ìlä hilvan.  I don't think there's any need for lu/alu.

I'd love to get more specific terms for directions like "up river" and "down the valley", etc. (haha, along with everything else)  :)

Quote
Second, when you see yourself converting "is VERBed by ..." straight into Na'vi, something has gone wrong.  Na'vi does not have passive verbs (though it does have passive participles).  You should rephrase the verb into the active, "the waterfall blocks the way."

Ah, okay, I guess I didn't really realize that.    Is this related to the requirements of reporting speech as san direct quote sìk
Oeru syaw "Tirea Ikran" kop slä frakrrmi layu oe "Grammar Skxawng"   :)

Offline Lisa

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Re: The way up the river....
« Reply #7 on: January 05, 2011, 09:20:01 pm »
why use a topical and teri? that doesnt make sense... i usually say either

Fìkemìri zene oe fpivìl nì'ul

or

teri fìkem zene oe fpivìl nì'ul

My redundantly redundant grammar skxawng skills strike again!   ;D  

I think this mistake and your explanation has really helped me with the topical.  My mistake seems really obvious now.  

Quote
... great effort tho. and I admire your drive to create more useful and complete ideas with Na'vi: taking it to the level of communication. ;D

Thanks!   I need to do more of these longer sentences; they really do help me.   But I'm afraid that people will start saying  "ahhh, the stupid, it burrrrns!" whenever I post something.   ;D ;D
Oeru syaw "Tirea Ikran" kop slä frakrrmi layu oe "Grammar Skxawng"   :)

Offline Eyawng te Klltepayu

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Re: The way up the river....
« Reply #8 on: January 05, 2011, 09:50:58 pm »
But I'm afraid that people will start saying  "ahhh, the stupid, it burrrrns!" whenever I post something.   ;D ;D


I also worry about that. But I keep typing away nonetheless (currently 1/2 way through writing a 1000 word story in Na'vi). Sometimes the best way to find out how something works is to break it.
Please tell me if you see mistakes in a Na'vi post of mine. It's the only way I'll learn. :P

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Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: The way up the river....
« Reply #9 on: January 05, 2011, 10:23:40 pm »
But I'm afraid that people will start saying  "ahhh, the stupid, it burrrrns!" whenever I post something.   ;D ;D


I also worry about that. But I keep typing away nonetheless (currently 1/2 way through writing a 1000 word story in Na'vi). Sometimes the best way to find out how something works is to break it.

I usually dont ever think stuff like that when people post questions or guesses on structures they are unsure about. its when people come in and reply with stuff that is incorrect that i think "NOOOOOooo D:" but then again, I myself have been in that place and corrected as well. Its all part of the learning. and good correction is good learning. ;D

OH PS, not too long ago, I have started giving everyone who corrects me(preferrably with source) +1 every time they do so. ;D I appreciate it.

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Offline Kì'eyawn

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Re: The way up the river....
« Reply #10 on: January 05, 2011, 10:34:53 pm »
Ma Tirea Ikran, there's nothing i can add to the grammar help the others before me have given.  I just wanted to second what Tirea Aean has said already and tell you no one will ever think you're stupid because you make a mistake.  We're all learning together; so when you push beyond your limits and try to do something with the language that you're not sure will work, we all benefit from working as a team like this. 

So err boldly, ma 'eylan  :D
eo Eywa oe 'ia

Fra'uri tìyawnur oe täpivìng nìwotx...

Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: The way up the river....
« Reply #11 on: January 05, 2011, 10:36:48 pm »
Ma Tirea Ikran, there's nothing i can add to the grammar help the others before me have given.  I just wanted to second what Tirea Aean has said already and tell you no one will ever think you're stupid because you make a mistake.  We're all learning together; so when you push beyond your limits and try to do something with the language that you're not sure will work, we all benefit from working as a team like this. 

So err boldly, ma 'eylan  :D


This.

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Offline Lisa

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Re: The way up the river....
« Reply #12 on: January 06, 2011, 10:42:23 am »
Ma Tirea Ikran, there's nothing i can add to the grammar help the others before me have given.  I just wanted to second what Tirea Aean has said already and tell you no one will ever think you're stupid because you make a mistake.  We're all learning together; so when you push beyond your limits and try to do something with the language that you're not sure will work, we all benefit from working as a team like this. 

So err boldly, ma 'eylan  :D


This.

Mengeyä aylì'uri atstunwi oe mengaru irayo seiyi, ma Kì'eyawn sì Tirea Aean! 

I must say most emphatically that I have never felt like I have been judged and found lacking here, rather the support for my seemingly Sisyphean attempts to learn Na'vi has been most generous.   I guess my biggest fear is that I don't want to "wear out my welcome", so to speak, by continually asking dumb questions.

I do now vow to go forth and err boldly, and to try and not make the same mistakes over and over again.   ;D

Oeru syaw "Tirea Ikran" kop slä frakrrmi layu oe "Grammar Skxawng"   :)

Offline Kì'eyawn

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Re: The way up the river....
« Reply #13 on: January 06, 2011, 10:55:04 am »
Don't sweat it, either way.  I myself usually have to make the same mistake at least twice before it sinks in  ;D
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Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: The way up the river....
« Reply #14 on: January 06, 2011, 02:58:06 pm »
you will NEVER wear out your welcome by asking questions. you should always feel welcome to ask. ;D

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Offline Eyawng te Klltepayu

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Re: The way up the river....
« Reply #15 on: January 06, 2011, 04:24:46 pm »
Do all languages on Earth talk of rivers using terms like 'upstream' and 'downstream'? Is it possible the Na'vi might say something like 'with flow' and 'against flow' or 'seaward' and 'mountainward' instead?
Please tell me if you see mistakes in a Na'vi post of mine. It's the only way I'll learn. :P

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Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: The way up the river....
« Reply #16 on: January 06, 2011, 04:27:31 pm »
Do all languages on Earth talk of rivers using terms like 'upstream' and 'downstream'? Is it possible the Na'vi might say something like 'with flow' and 'against flow' or 'seaward' and 'mountainward' instead?

great point! one of those alternatives may end up being the way to do it

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Offline wm.annis

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Re: The way up the river....
« Reply #17 on: January 06, 2011, 04:31:25 pm »
Do all languages on Earth talk of rivers using terms like 'upstream' and 'downstream'? Is it possible the Na'vi might say something like 'with flow' and 'against flow' or 'seaward' and 'mountainward' instead?

Natural languages offer many choices here, including plain ol' upstream and downstream.

I would expect phrases like with the flow/against the flow to develop as metaphors from the terminology for actual flows in the natural world — like a river — rather than the other direction.  This morning while walking to work I thought about ìlä and fulfilling this role.  As always, Frommer would need to approve.
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Offline Kì'eyawn

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Re: The way up the river....
« Reply #18 on: January 07, 2011, 09:41:18 am »
...This morning while walking to work I thought about ìlä and fulfilling this role.  As always, Frommer would need to approve.[/quote]

I like it  :)
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Offline `Eylan Ayfalulukanä

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Re: The way up the river....
« Reply #19 on: January 07, 2011, 08:44:12 pm »
Put a bunch of Na`vi speakers in a room with typewriters, and they will eventually come up with all possible language constructions.... :P

If we had a word for 'flow', then the metaphor/idiom 'with the flow/against the flow could be constructed with ìlä and . I will have to look in the LEP and see if 'flow' was suggested.

As far as 'upriver' and 'downriver' goes, as I see it, these would be really tough to do with adpositons alone (even if more adpositions could be created, which I don't think will be happening). I guess that is why nefa and nekll are adverbs-- they simply don't work as adpositions.

Besides 'upriver' and 'downriver', we have 'uphill' and 'downhill'. In flying, we could have 'ascend' and 'descend', which in powered flight mean forward progress along with a change in altitude (just like going up/down river/hill), something the Na`vi would be very familiar with. Either specialized words are needed for these terms, or else a set of affixes to modify a word to indicate 'ascend' or 'descend'.

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