Tran/Intrans Sentinces--Am I doing This Right?

[Tsufätu Ayioangä]

Ok so I have recently decided to just dive back into the Na'vi world and I began with my little "Crash Course in Linguistic Terminology" packet.  I have come to the part on Transitive and Intransitive verbs/sentences and I just wanted to be sure I was doing this right

So for "I speak" it would just be:

Oe plltxe

Because speak is an Intransitive verb?

And something like

Oel makto ikranti.

Would be a transitive sentience?






Help!?

[Plumps]

Yes, that's right and zola'u nìprrte' ne'ìm ne awngeyä lì'fyaolo'

Although plltxe is probably a bad example because it can be used both transitively and intransitively.
Compare oe plltxe "I speak" with oel plltxe aylì'ut "I speak words"

Really intransitive would be something like oe kä "I go" because there can be no thing or person that receives your 'going'.

I hope that helps...

[Tsufätu Ayioangä]

Woo!  I be's learning stuff on my own!

To counter the second half of your post, can't pretty much any verb be transitive or intransitive?  I go home.  Home is receiving the going, no?  Or am I just tired?  O.o

[Tirea Aean]

Woo!  I be's learning stuff on my own!

To counter the second half of your post, can't pretty much any verb be transitive or intransitive?  I go home.  Home is receiving the going, no?  Or am I just tired?  O.o

It turns more into "I go towards the house"

Sleep and die are such verbs that cant have object.

I die. You cant die something. You cant sleep something.

[Blue Elf]

Woo!  I be's learning stuff on my own!

To counter the second half of your post, can't pretty much any verb be transitive or intransitive?  I go home.  Home is receiving the going, no?  Or am I just tired?  O.o

It turns more into "I go towards the house"

Sleep and die are such verbs that cant have object.

I die. You cant die something. You cant sleep something.

However - if English verb is transitive/intransitive, it doesn't mean, that its Na'vi counterpart is transitive/intransitive too. You should check transitivity in the dictionary

However, a number of important transitive verbs in English have intransitive counterparts in Na'vi: "I love you" = Nga yawne lu oer, "I know you" = Nga smon oer.

[Tirea Aean]

Woo!  I be's learning stuff on my own!

To counter the second half of your post, can't pretty much any verb be transitive or intransitive?  I go home.  Home is receiving the going, no?  Or am I just tired?  O.o

It turns more into "I go towards the house"

Sleep and die are such verbs that cant have object.

I die. You cant die something. You cant sleep something.

However - if English verb is transitive/intransitive, it doesn't mean, that its Na'vi counterpart is transitive/intransitive too. You should check transitivity in the dictionary

However, a number of important transitive verbs in English have intransitive counterparts in Na'vi: "I love you" = Nga yawne lu oer, "I know you" = Nga smon oer.

Definitely true. thanks for mentioning this important fact.

[MIPP]

Hi!

Plltxe Speak isn't the very best example for the situation below, so I'm using peng tell.  

A few months ago, I read somewhere, in this forum, that the sentence Oe peng is incorrect and should be Oel peng, because peng is a transitive verb that requires a direct object, which, in this case, is implicit: I most likely tell you words (aylì'u).

This means the ergative and accusative will not always come in pairs, as you may see from the case above. The same way the Na'vi may omit the subject, when it is implicit (e.g. Oel peng aylì'u ngaru taluna new (oe) piveng faylì'u ngaru.) and in this case we have the accusative but no ergative, the opposite process may occur too (e.g. Oel peng (aylì'u) ayngaru).

Maybe this is no longer right, as I read it by December 2010, I think - long time no see! -, but, in that case, please warn me.

ta MIPP.

[Plumps]

Indeed... out-dated information.

Although I'm dubious because again this is a verb of speech and they behave nìhek really

So, because you tell something it's peng oel vurit/aylì'ut (ay)for ... but if you include direct speech it becomes again peng oe (ay)for san XYZ sìk.
As I said, verbs of speech are not the best example words one should use for showing in/transitive uses

I agree though that it can be oel peng if it is clear from the context that you tell something. But this has to be in an ongoing conversation. If it's just a statement of 'I speak', 'I hunt' without stating the object, then it can be oe plltxe/peng, oe taron without the ergative.

[MIPP]

I was affraid it was outdated info too (or maybe I just misunderstood it back then). Thank you anyway, ma Plumps.

[Tirea Aean]

ergative and accusative in themselves are outdated terminology, replaced with agentive and patientive respectively. iirc. or as I like to call them the -L and the -t. (much easier)

[Plumps]

ergative and accusative in themselves are outdated terminology, replaced with agentive and patientive respectively. iirc. or as I like to call them the -L and the -t. (much easier)

'ä' – ngaru tìyawr nìlun, nìfrakrr

I give you the 111. Karma

[Tirea Aean]

Irayo

SO... in my understanding:

A good example for a transitive verb is yom (eat).
A good example for an intransitive verb is terkup (die).

Intransitive verbs are not allowed to use -l or -t endings. they dont have objects.
Transitive verbs generally have a subject marked with -l and direct object. marked with -t.

Transitive verbs may be used in what is called antipassive:

        Oe yolom.  (I ate. As in I ate something, but what I ate is not relevant, I'm just saying I ate.)

    where you dont list an object, just a subject. in this case, neither
    -l nor -t are used. Except causitives(<eyk> infix):

        Oel zeykolo. (I healed. as in, I healed something, but what it is is not relevant.)

There is also a common thing called pro-drop, where the subject pronoun gets deleted, leaving behind the verb and any possible objects. some of us do this in English too:

((previous conversation about a male friend who sent a message))
A: Did you get the message he sent yet?
B: Yeah. Got it yesterday.

<as always karma for corrections of my understanding>

[MIPP]

ergative and accusative in themselves are outdated terminology, replaced with agentive and patientive respectively. iirc. or as I like to call them the -L and the -t. (much easier)

I remember the terminology changed... however, when I started to learn Na'vi, it was ERG and ACC and it's hard to me to use AGE and PAT.

I apologize for my mistake, it was not on purpose though.

[Tirea Aean]

ergative and accusative in themselves are outdated terminology, replaced with agentive and patientive respectively. iirc. or as I like to call them the -L and the -t. (much easier)

I remember the terminology changed... however, when I started to learn Na'vi, it was ERG and ACC and it's hard to me to use AGE and PAT.

I apologize for my mistake, it was not on purpose though.

No problem. I understand.

I was around in those days too. I made the switch when our dictionary did. I remember the days of kxener=fruit, neu, fkeu, sreu. Ayu latem.

[`Eylan Ayfalulukanä]

Ma Tirea, I like the -l and -t terminology, and will remember that when teaching Na'vi!

I did not know that you had to use the agentive noun form before a verb with the <eyk> infix (which I know forces a verb to be transitive), even if there is no object. What is the reasoning for this?

[Tirea Aean]

Ma Tirea, I like the -l and -t terminology, and will remember that when teaching Na'vi!

I did not know that you had to use the agentive form before a verb with the <eyk> infix, even if there is no object. What is the reasoning for this?

Because.

http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php/Canon/2010/UltxaAyharyu%C3%A4#Causative_for_ambitransitive_verbs

[Tsufätu Ayioangä]

Wow...lotsa info!

So what I'm gathering from this is that trans/intrans verbs are not set in stone and it really just depends upon the context of the sentence?

[Tirea Aean]

At the end of the day, transitive and intransitive verbs are marked as such in the dictionary. It specifies this in the mobile app too.

[Plumps]

It specifies this in the mobile app too.

That's right ... which reminds me ... it would be cool if one could choose all the vtr./vin. instead of only v. in the app
I should suggest this to Seze

[Tsufätu Ayioangä]

That would be great!  I just got the app and I love it!