Verbs "to have" "To like" and "to be supposed to" (should)

[pxenari]

  I don't understand AT ALL ( ) how to use the (equivalent) of "to have" (eg. I have a rock) in Na'vi. I also don't see how you can "like" something. (eg. I like food, I like to run). I kind of understand how to use Sweylu, but it doesn't fully get to me yet. A little help? (and some simple examples, please)

[wm.annis]

I don't understand AT ALL ( ) how to use the (equivalent) of "to have" (eg. I have a rock) in Na'vi. I also don't see how you can "like" something. (eg. I like food, I like to run).

Na'vi expresses "have" the same way a lot of human languages do, with a verb for "to be" and the dative.  So, instead of "I have a rock" you say "to me there is a rock."

  Lu oeru tskxe ("there-is to-me rock")
  Lu taronyur tukru ("there-is to-the-hunter spear")

It is most common to have the form of "to be," lu, first in the sentence when you use it with the dative to mean "have" in this way.

The idea of "like" is the same.  Instead of saying "I like something" you say "something is pleasing to me," again with the dative.

  Sunu oeru syuve. ("pleases to-me food")
  Ke sunu for teylu. ("not pleases to-them grubs")

People tend to put the verb first in this idiom, but I don't think Frommer ever told us that was something we should do (unlike with lu above, which he was clear about coming first).

[`Eylan Ayfalulukanä]

The idea of "like" is the same.  Instead of saying "I like something" you say "something is pleasing to me," again with the dative.

  Sunu oeru syuve. ("pleases to-me food")
  Ke sunu for teylu. ("not pleases to-them grubs")

People tend to put the verb first in this idiom, but I don't think Frommer ever told us that was something we should do (unlike with lu above, which he was clear about coming first).

Are these in fact, idioms? If constructs like these exist due to constraints dictated by the structure of the language, it would seem to me that they would not be considered idioms. (They are certainly idioms to English speakers, though!)

['Oma Tirea]

The idea of "like" is the same.  Instead of saying "I like something" you say "something is pleasing to me," again with the dative.

  Sunu oeru syuve. ("pleases to-me food")
  Ke sunu for teylu. ("not pleases to-them grubs")

People tend to put the verb first in this idiom, but I don't think Frommer ever told us that was something we should do (unlike with lu above, which he was clear about coming first).

Are these in fact, idioms? If constructs like these exist due to constraints dictated by the structure of the language, it would seem to me that they would not be considered idioms. (They are certainly idioms to English speakers, though!)

Mllte ngahu.  Although the amount of (intransitive) verbs that have the dative rule seem to be very rare....

[Ftxavanga Txe′lan]

And what is the Na'vi equivalent of should, if I may ask? I've always wondered about that one and never actually asked.

[Tswusayona Tsamsiyu]

The idea of "like" is the same.  Instead of saying "I like something" you say "something is pleasing to me," again with the dative.

  Sunu oeru syuve. ("pleases to-me food")
  Ke sunu for teylu. ("not pleases to-them grubs")

People tend to put the verb first in this idiom, but I don't think Frommer ever told us that was something we should do (unlike with lu above, which he was clear about coming first).

Are these in fact, idioms? If constructs like these exist due to constraints dictated by the structure of the language, it would seem to me that they would not be considered idioms. (They are certainly idioms to English speakers, though!)

Mllte ngahu.  Although the amount of (intransitive) verbs that have the dative rule seem to be very rare....

it can't be idiomatic because you can also use that with topical. oeri teylu sunu (for me, teylu is likeable/pleasing).

And what is the Na'vi equivalent of should, if I may ask? I've always wondered about that one and never actually asked.

the word for "should" in Na'vi is sweylu. but note that it doesn't exactly work as in English.
sweylu comes from swey and lu meaning literally "it's best that....".
there are two ways of using this word. one for future and one for past.
for future you use the construction sweylu txo <iv>. example: sweylu txo nga hivum.-it will be best if you leave (you should leave).
for past you use the construction sweylu fwa/tsawa <am>/<ol>. example: sweylu fwa po zola'u- it was best that he came (he should have come).
note that the past construction doesn't refer to the situation when something should have happened but it didn't (she should have been here. (but she's not here) ). this construction refers to the situation when something that was done was the right thing to do. (I think we should have agreed.)
for more here's Pawl blog post about that (go a little down): http://naviteri.org/2011/04/%E2%80%99a%E2%80%99awa-li%E2%80%99fyavi-amip%E2%80%94a-few-new-expressions/

[Ftxavanga Txe′lan]

Thanks so much, ma Tswusayona! It really helped, oel tslam set.

[Carborundum]

it can't be idiomatic because you can also use that with topical. oeri teylu sunu (for me, teylu is likeable/pleasing).

I can't recall seeing this rule before. Where is it from?

[Tswusayona Tsamsiyu]

it's a rule. it's just logically and obviously correct (tì'efumì oeyä).

[pxenari]

Na'vi expresses "have" the same way a lot of human languages do, with a verb for "to be" and the dative.  So, instead of "I have a rock" you say "to me there is a rock."

 Lu oeru tskxe ("there-is to-me rock")
 Lu taronyur tukru ("there-is to-the-hunter spear")

It is most common to have the form of "to be," lu, first in the sentence when you use it with the dative to mean "have" in this way.

This form seems strange. In NeotrekkerZ's Na'vi in a nutshell, He uses the example "Lu oe-ru ätxäle" or "there is to me a request." This sounds as if someone were requesting something of you, not you having a request.

The idea of "like" is the same.  Instead of saying "I like something" you say "something is pleasing to me," again with the dative.

  Sunu oeru syuve. ("pleases to-me food")
  Ke sunu for teylu. ("not pleases to-them grubs")

  Is it any different for liking an action?  (I like to run)

[wm.annis]

Are these in fact, idioms?

Well, I'm using the word "idiom" somewhat loosely.  There is not a more convenient word to express the idea "this is phrased quite differently in language X than in language Y."

['Oma Tirea]

there are two ways of using this word. one for future and one for past.
for future you use the construction sweylu txo <iv>. example: sweylu txo nga hivum.-it will be best if you leave (you should leave).
for past you use the construction sweylu fwa/tsawa <am>/<ol>. example: sweylu fwa po zola'u- it was best that he came (he should have come).
note that the past construction doesn't refer to the situation when something should have happened but it didn't (she should have been here. (but she's not here) ). this construction refers to the situation when something that was done was the right thing to do. (I think we should have agreed.)

So then what would sweylu txo <imv>/<ilv> or sweylu fwa/tsawa <ay>/<ìy>... mean?

Is it any different for liking an action?  (I like to run)

Nope.  Here the gerund may be used, n.k.: sunu oeru tìtusul

[omängum fra'uti]

The gerund form is only for simple concepts though.  If you wanted to say "I like that you run" or "I like to run with you" you would have to use a construct like...

Sunu oeru fwa nga tul
or
Sunu oeru fwa oe tul ngahu.

[Tswusayona Tsamsiyu]

there are two ways of using this word. one for future and one for past.
for future you use the construction sweylu txo <iv>. example: sweylu txo nga hivum.-it will be best if you leave (you should leave).
for past you use the construction sweylu fwa/tsawa <am>/<ol>. example: sweylu fwa po zola'u- it was best that he came (he should have come).
note that the past construction doesn't refer to the situation when something should have happened but it didn't (she should have been here. (but she's not here) ). this construction refers to the situation when something that was done was the right thing to do. (I think we should have agreed.)

So then what would sweylu txo <imv>/<ilv> or sweylu fwa/tsawa <ay>/<ìy>... mean?

those situations just won't happen. the past is already known to us so no <iv> is needed. as for future, we can't know exactly what will happen so we have to use subjunctive.

[Plumps]

Na'vi expresses "have" the same way a lot of human languages do, with a verb for "to be" and the dative.  So, instead of "I have a rock" you say "to me there is a rock."

 Lu oeru tskxe ("there-is to-me rock")
 Lu taronyur tukru ("there-is to-the-hunter spear")

It is most common to have the form of "to be," lu, first in the sentence when you use it with the dative to mean "have" in this way.

This form seems strange. In NeotrekkerZ's Na'vi in a nutshell, He uses the example "Lu oe-ru ätxäle" or "there is to me a request." This sounds as if someone were requesting something of you, not you having a request.

There is no way around it I'm not sure what we would use for the 'requesting of somebody' ... maybe the topical but I'm not sure.
The 'have' construction on the other hand is clear and quite simple if you get used to it
          X has Y = lu X-(u)ru Y
where X is put into the dative in Na'vi and Y remains as is.

If that poses a problem, you should not start learning Irish

[`Eylan Ayfalulukanä]

Perhaps srake lu ngaru ätxäle The srake would not be necessary if this was simply being stated as a fact.

Since sweylu cannot be used in the same sense we use it in English as in 'he should have taken out the trash when he was told. Instead we now have flies.', what might one use as a construction that means the same thing?

[Tswusayona Tsamsiyu]

Since sweylu cannot be used in the same sense we use it in English as in 'he should have taken out the trash when he was told. Instead we now have flies.', what might one use as a construction that means the same thing?

Frommer said he's working on that.

[pxenari]

This is really good stuff! Irayo!