Author Topic: Re: You don't have to?  (Read 802 times)

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Offline Tswusayona Tsamsiyu

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Re: You don't have to?
« on: February 06, 2011, 02:11:22 pm »
ma 'eylan
kame ngat

if you want to say don't have to just write ke zene
ke zene=don't have to
zenke=musn't

Eywa ngahu
Nivume Na'vit, fpivìl nìNa'vi, kivame na Na'vi.....
oer fko syaw tswusayona tsamsiyu

Offline `Eylan Ayfalulukanä

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Re: You don't have to?
« Reply #1 on: February 07, 2011, 02:27:42 am »
Kaltxì ma kanua Yayo  :D

I just wonder, you say zenke (ke zene) if you say that one must not...
Nga zenke yivom oeti!

For 'must not' to people or animals (with a will), you use rä`ä

Nga rä`ä yom oeti!

An imperative command does not need the <iv> infix because it is not wishful or polite.

Quote from: Ikranari
And thats ok, but how would you say, that one dos not have to.
You don't have to drink.
Nga zeneke niväk
That becomes more a comand then an nice way of saying that you dosen't have to. Right?

Your second example is more polite, so you would use the <iv> infix. Also, you would use tsun (can) rather than zene (must). Thus:

Nga ke tsun ke niväk

The second ke is needed (I think) because of the Na`vi requirement for double negatives. But maybe in this canse the second keis not needed because the recipient of the message has a choice whether or not to drink.

Others may have better ideas.

Yawey ngahu!
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Offline Plumps

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Re: You don't have to?
« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2011, 05:07:03 am »
Kaltxì ma kanua Yayo  :D

I just wonder, you say zenke (ke zene) if you say that one must not...
Nga zenke yivom oeti!

For 'must not' to people or animals (with a will), you use rä`ä

Nga rä`ä yom oeti!
Both are valid, I think. One is for a statement, the other for a command

   nga ke zene yivom tsat, “you don’t have to eat that” (statement)
   nga zenke yivom tsat, “you must not eat that” (it has been forbitten) (statement)
   tsat rä’ä yom! or tsat rä’ä yivom! “don’t eat that!” (command)
   rä’ä yom ngal tsat! or rä’ä yivom ngal tsat! “don’t you eat that!” (as a warning, same as Neytiri’s ftang nga! “you stop (that)” (i.e., hitting the ayatokirina’)) (command)



An imperative command does not need the <iv> infix because it is not wishful or polite.

Quote from: Ikranari
And thats ok, but how would you say, that one dos not have to.
You don't have to drink.
Nga zeneke niväk
That becomes more a comand then an nice way of saying that you dosen't have to. Right?

Your second example is more polite, so you would use the <iv> infix.
The notion of politeness with imperatives and ‹iv› is a misreading, I think. Frommer stated clearly:
Quote from: Frommer, 15 Feb 2010
Imperatives, either positive or negative, have two forms: either the bare root or the -iv- form. At an earlier point in the history of the language there was probably a polite/familiar distinction (the -iv- form being the politer one), but that's no longer the case. They're used interchangeably. So to say "Go!" you can say either kivä or just .
Of course, if the community started to use it like that again then that would be a natural (back) development :D


Also, you would use tsun (can) rather than zene (must). Thus:

Nga ke tsun ke niväk

The second ke is needed (I think) because of the Na`vi requirement for double negatives. But maybe in this canse the second keis not needed because the recipient of the message has a choice whether or not to drink.

No, I think the second ke is not needed because these are two sentences put together. Also, I think your translation is slightly off, but I could be wrong here since I’m not a native speaker; for me there is a difference between ‘you are not able/can’t drink’ (ke tsun) and ‘you don’t have to drink’ (see examples above)

There’s yet another possibility ;)
   ke lu ngaru kea tìkin a näk, “you don’t have the need to drink”
   ke lu kea tìkin a näk, “there’s no need to drink”

Ah, so many possibilities :D that’s what makes a language!

Offline Sireayä mokri

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Re: You don't have to?
« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2011, 05:42:34 am »
No, I think the second ke is not needed because these are two sentences put together. Also, I think your translation is slightly off, but I could be wrong here since I’m not a native speaker; for me there is a difference between ‘you are not able/can’t drink’ (ke tsun) and ‘you don’t have to drink’ (see examples above)

There’s yet another possibility ;)
   ke lu ngaru kea tìkin a näk, “you don’t have the need to drink”
   ke lu kea tìkin a näk, “there’s no need to drink”

Ah, so many possibilities :D that’s what makes a language!

I agree on "second ke", double negative is used with words like kawkrr, kawtu, kaw'it, ke'u etc.

And I like "ke lu tìkin" construction here as well.
When the mirror speaks, the reflection lies.

Offline `Eylan Ayfalulukanä

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Re: You don't have to?
« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2011, 08:53:33 pm »
I know there are so many shades of meaning being discussed here. This is the same idea, but from a more positive sense. I think it may be closer than anything yet suggested:

Nga zivene ftxivey näkit (doggone infinitives!)

Yawey ngahu!
pamrel si ro [email protected]

Offline Sireayä mokri

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Re: You don't have to?
« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2011, 09:05:58 am »
Nga zivene ftxivey näkit (doggone infinitives!)

Näk is a verb, thus patientive can't be applied on it. And for may I think we should use tsun:

Nga tsun ftxivey niväk.

Or you can use fuke:

Nga tsun ftxivey futa näk fuke.
When the mirror speaks, the reflection lies.

Offline `Eylan Ayfalulukanä

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Re: You don't have to?
« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2011, 03:41:35 pm »
Nga zivene ftxivey näkit (doggone infinitives!)

Näk is a verb, thus patientive can't be applied on it. And for may I think we should use tsun:

Nga tsun ftxivey niväk.

Growl!
What a skxawng oversight on my part!

Quote from: Sireayä mokri
Or you can use fuke:

Nga tsun ftxivey futa näk fuke.

Tsa`u lu txantsan nang

Yawey ngahu!
pamrel si ro [email protected]

 

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