Author Topic: a word for the german "doch" & "aber"/"sondern" & "egal" & "fei", ...  (Read 3498 times)

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Offline 'eylan na'viyä

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as far as i know there is no equivalent word for "doch".
for me this not a new concept(that there is a disctinctive word), but for native speakers other than german or dutch this might be interesting.

i thought about a "doch" in the sense of "a positive contradiction to a negative statement" (or question){req:voc: exact meaning of srane+kehe}{req:gram: everything that has to to with negative statements}
maybe it could be combined with the meaning of (E) Now more than ever (D) Jetzt erst recht. the meaning would depend on context.
2 translations referring to this post: http://forum.learnnavi.org/vocabulary-expansion/a-word-for-the-german-doch/msg126680/#msg126680:
(French) Si; (Swedish) Jo

in German "aber", in Spanisch "pero", in Japanese "-ga, ..."
in German "sondern", in Spanisch "sino", in Japanese (e. g.) "-naku, ..."
for both {req:voc: exact meaning of slä}
these 2 words were suggested here: complete post with examples: http://forum.learnnavi.org/vocabulary-expansion/a-word-for-the-german-doch/msg127600/#msg127600

egal & "fei" are suggested here:
http://forum.learnnavi.org/vocabulary-expansion/a-word-for-the-german-doch/msg130081/#msg130081

-any/-irgend prefix
http://forum.learnnavi.org/vocabulary-expansion/a-word-for-the-german-doch/30/
« Last Edit: March 07, 2010, 05:03:34 am by 'eylan na'viyä »

Offline Elektrolurch

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Re: a word for the german "doch"
« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2010, 02:28:14 am »
I'm a german native speaker ;)

Depends on what "doch" you mean... "doch" can have several meanings..
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Offline roger

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Re: a word for the german "doch"
« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2010, 02:54:03 am »
this ties in with answering negative questions, which should def. be covered.

Offline 'eylan na'viyä

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Re: a word for the german "doch"
« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2010, 03:00:56 am »
i thought about the "doch" when it is used as a single word.

maybe the na'vi "doch" could have additional meanings too but not necessarily the same.
it could also belong to a different wordgroup. it might be a verb or a noun

Offline Elektrolurch

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Re: a word for the german "doch"
« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2010, 03:01:46 am »
I know what you mean. But it isn't only used with answering negative ones. If someone has an other opinion, you can use it. And if you're not sure and carefully disagree.
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Offline 'eylan na'viyä

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Re: a word for the german "doch"
« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2010, 03:28:12 am »
i think some examples would be usefull:
das ist eine schlechte idee : you answer: nein ist es nicht

das ist keine gute idee : you answer: doch

i tried to find an example of a contradiction to a positive statement but i didnt find any. maybe you can find one

btw: im a german native speaker too *gg*

Offline Elektrolurch

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Re: a word for the german "doch"
« Reply #6 on: March 03, 2010, 03:31:57 am »
I'm a Na'vi noob. ;D I hardly do know anything ::)
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Offline Na'rìghawnu

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Re: a word for the german "doch"
« Reply #7 on: March 03, 2010, 03:53:48 am »
Quote
i tried to find an example of a contradiction to a positive statement but i didnt find any.

This is ok, because this "doch" just can contradict negative statements. It is a word including the meaning of a positive affirmation. So it can't contradict positive statements.

The example you gave is good. There could be namend many more:

"We won't fight in this war." - "Doch!" (= That's wrong! We will!)
"There are no cats in America." - "Doch!" (= That's wrong! They are!)

Offline Nyx

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Re: a word for the german "doch"
« Reply #8 on: March 03, 2010, 07:12:07 am »
This is a very useful word and I miss it in some languages. Would be nice if Na'vi had it :)

Offline wm.annis

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Re: a word for the german "doch"
« Reply #9 on: March 03, 2010, 07:59:49 am »
I agree "doch" is a magnificent word, though it intrudes a bit into Grammar Territory (how do we answer negative srak-questions?).

Perhaps class C?
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Offline 'eylan na'viyä

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Re: a word for the german "doch"
« Reply #10 on: March 03, 2010, 08:10:06 am »
its true that this slightly involves grammar but i think that is something that can be put in a vocabulary request. this word might not be essential for communication because you can express it in another way but it would have a big role defining the language if frommer chooses to include it.

Offline Lance R. Casey

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Re: a word for the german "doch"
« Reply #11 on: March 03, 2010, 02:01:14 pm »
In Swedish we have "jo" that is used in the same way (-Han kan inte spela piano. -Jo!), and in French it's "si" (-Vous ne pensez pas que cette langue est belle? -Si, très belle!). I too have often wished for an equivalent in other languages, and Na'vi is no exception. ;)

// Lance R. Casey

Offline roger

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Re: a word for the german "doch"
« Reply #12 on: March 03, 2010, 04:21:13 pm »
we're assuming that Na'vi has English polarity, which it may not. Srane may already mean doch; we may need a word for English "yes" when asked a negative question. Assuming negative questions are even allowed.

Offline Fpeioyuyä 'ite

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Re: a word for the german "doch"
« Reply #13 on: March 03, 2010, 06:00:19 pm »
Wow, the more I read about the stuff we need in the Na'vi language, the more I learn about what English is lacking. (How many times have you been speaking to someone and they say, "You don't want to go, right?" but you want to communicate that you DO want to go. You say yes and they ask, "Yes as in you do want to go, or yes as in I am correct that you don't want to go?")
I'm glad I stumbled across this thread, because every freaking time I ask my German teacher what "doch" means, she says, "It just one of those words that makes your German sound more authentic." (which I guess is true, but doesn't actually answer the question.) I've now realized that those words are particles, thanks to Na'vi, which has made language learning so much more fun.

Um...so that I actually "contribute" something to this thread...  :D
Srane may already mean doch; we may need a word for English "yes" when asked a negative question. Assuming negative questions are even allowed.

I agree with this; I think that srane is probably used in this sense, and the second part reminds me: Wasn't there a big negation debate a while ago?
This is probably edging closer to grammar, because it opens up some grammatical questions. I suppose it wouldn't hurt to ask, though!
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Offline Prrton

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Re: a word for the german "doch"
« Reply #14 on: March 03, 2010, 06:45:42 pm »
I agree "doch" is a magnificent word, though it intrudes a bit into Grammar Territory (how do we answer negative srak-questions?).

Perhaps class C?

I suggest an appendix or some kind of extra visual marker on these terms for more fundamental "conceptual questions" I think it best if it go in at the same time as C, but not necessarily. He may want these things sooner precisely because they're not "English-like".

This is FANTASTIC by the way. I think this is exactly the kind of Non-English example that he wants to see.

Please just keep in mind that for anything like this, it's really important to include a broad range of examples with the CLOSEST English translations that are possible for that range.

Sometimes the concepts alien to one's native language are very difficult to convey.

Japanese 渋い (shibui, literally: "bitter" in taste, but most commonly used to mean "quiet, sober, austere, tasteful" and applied to things that are well designed artistically (but don't overtly call attention to themselves.) "quietly and gracefully elegant")

Thai มีจริง (mii jing, literally: "exists truth", but commonly means "is REAL" and is also the adjective for "tangible, existing physically").

Offline Will Txankamuse

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Re: a word for the german "doch"
« Reply #15 on: March 03, 2010, 09:30:27 pm »
So, is this a bit like the in Latin, with "nonne", implying that the interrogator thinks the answer to be the affirmative, and "num", implying that the interrogator thinks the answer to be the negative. [source]

If so, it would be cool to get a set of words for this, wouldn't it?

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Offline Na'rìghawnu

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Re: a word for the german "doch"
« Reply #16 on: March 04, 2010, 12:47:32 am »
Quote
So, is this a bit like the in Latin, with "nonne", implying that the interrogator thinks the answer to be the affirmative, and "num", implying that the interrogator thinks the answer to be the negative.

Well, not quite. "Nonne"- and "num"-questions imply a special answer, forming "rhetoric questions". The German "doch" isn't in the question, itself *is* the answer or just a statement (because it musn't follow a question, it also comes after (negative) statements, to show, that the second person thinks different about what was said). In most cases the "doch" is unexspected by the first person, so it's quite a not forseen more or less surprising statement.


Quote
This is FANTASTIC by the way. I think this is exactly the kind of Non-English example that he wants to see.

So I want to introduce another idea, which is common in some languages (German, Spanish, Japanese), but not in English. I'm speaking about the two meanings of the English "but" (well, at least from a German/Spanisch/...-standpoint there are two meanings).

The first one is to make a strong contrast and can be found after positive and negative sentences, like

(1) My father went into the hills, but my mother went to the valley.
(2) He isn't my special one, but he is a friend.

In German this "but" would be "aber", in Spanisch "pero", in Japanese (e. g.) "-ga, ...".

The other "but" is to make also contrasts, but more in the way of "instead" (that means, it contrasts the maybe supposed thing with the true thing, correcting it). Therefore this "but" can only be used after negative sentences, like

(3) "Hamlet" wasn't written by Dickens [as you seem to think], *but* by Shakespeare.
(4) He isn't my special one [as you seem to suppose], *but* he is my brother.

In German this "but" would be "sondern", in Spanisch "sino", in Japanese (e. g.) "-naku, ..."

English is the only language I know, where these two concepts are put together into one word ("but"), so if Na'vi would do it the same way, I couldn't avoid the feeling of having it an English touch.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2010, 12:57:07 am by Na'rìghawnu »

Offline 'eylan na'viyä

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Re: a word for the german "doch"
« Reply #17 on: March 04, 2010, 02:53:06 am »
Quote
So, is this a bit like the in Latin, with "nonne", implying that the interrogator thinks the answer to be the affirmative, and "num", implying that the interrogator thinks the answer to be the negative.

Well, not quite. "Nonne"- and "num"-questions imply a special answer, forming "rhetoric questions". The German "doch" isn't in the question, itself *is* the answer or just a statement (because it musn't follow a question, it also comes after (negative) statements, to show, that the second person thinks different about what was said). In most cases the "doch" is unexspected by the first person, so it's quite a not forseen more or less surprising statement.


Quote
This is FANTASTIC by the way. I think this is exactly the kind of Non-English example that he wants to see.

So I want to introduce another idea, which is common in some languages (German, Spanish, Japanese), but not in English. I'm speaking about the two meanings of the English "but" (well, at least from a German/Spanisch/...-standpoint there are two meanings).

The first one is to make a strong contrast and can be found after positive and negative sentences, like

(1) My father went into the hills, but my mother went to the valley.
(2) He isn't my special one, but he is a friend.

In German this "but" would be "aber", in Spanisch "pero", in Japanese (e. g.) "-ga, ...".

The other "but" is to make also contrasts, but more in the way of "instead" (that means, it contrasts the maybe supposed thing with the true thing, correcting it). Therefore this "but" can only be used after negative sentences, like

(3) "Hamlet" wasn't written by Dickens [as you seem to think], *but* by Shakespeare.
(4) He isn't my special one [as you seem to suppose], *but* he is my brother.

In German this "but" would be "sondern", in Spanisch "sino", in Japanese (e. g.) "-naku, ..."

English is the only language I know, where these two concepts are put together into one word ("but"), so if Na'vi would do it the same way, I couldn't avoid the feeling of having it an English touch.

Oh yes, thats also a very important thing.
Exit: i added it to the title
« Last Edit: March 04, 2010, 03:01:58 am by 'eylan na'viyä »

Offline 'eylan na'viyä

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Re: a word for the german "doch"
« Reply #18 on: March 04, 2010, 03:02:02 am »
we're assuming that Na'vi has English polarity, which it may not. Srane may already mean doch; we may need a word for English "yes" when asked a negative question. Assuming negative questions are even allowed.
i added a note to post #1

Offline Lance R. Casey

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Re: a word for the german "doch"
« Reply #19 on: March 04, 2010, 03:26:00 am »
So I want to introduce another idea, which is common in some languages (German, Spanish, Japanese), but not in English. I'm speaking about the two meanings of the English "but" (well, at least from a German/Spanisch/...-standpoint there are two meanings).

The first one is to make a strong contrast and can be found after positive and negative sentences, like

(1) My father went into the hills, but my mother went to the valley.
(2) He isn't my special one, but he is a friend.

In German this "but" would be "aber", in Spanisch "pero", in Japanese (e. g.) "-ga, ...".

The other "but" is to make also contrasts, but more in the way of "instead" (that means, it contrasts the maybe supposed thing with the true thing, correcting it). Therefore this "but" can only be used after negative sentences, like

(3) "Hamlet" wasn't written by Dickens [as you seem to think], *but* by Shakespeare.
(4) He isn't my special one [as you seem to suppose], *but* he is my brother.

In German this "but" would be "sondern", in Spanisch "sino", in Japanese (e. g.) "-naku, ..."

English is the only language I know, where these two concepts are put together into one word ("but"), so if Na'vi would do it the same way, I couldn't avoid the feeling of having it an English touch.

Same in Swedish:

(1) Min far gick upp bland bergen, men min mor gick ner i dalen.

(3) "Hamlet" skrevs inte av Dickens, utan av Shakespeare.

The latter word is used for "without" otherwise.

// Lance R. Casey

 

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