Author Topic: a word for the german "doch" & "aber"/"sondern" & "egal" & "fei", ...  (Read 3558 times)

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Offline Tsu'roen

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Re: a word for the german "doch" & "aber"/"sondern"
« Reply #20 on: March 04, 2010, 05:31:55 am »
doch
I. adversative conj.
1. aber - but, however, yet

II. causative conj.
2. wo doch , wenn doch  - when , since
[warum hast du mich nicht gefragt ob ich mit ins Kino wollte wo du doch wußtest, daß ich Avatar sehen wollte = why didn't you ask if I wanted to join you to the cinema when you knew that I wanted to see Avatar],
[warum fragst du, wenn du es doch schon weißt = why do you ask when you know it anyway]

3. literary: since
[er schwieg, sah er doch, daß alle Worte sinnlos waren = he was silent since he saw that all his words were in vain]

III. adv.
4. trotzdem, dennoch - yet, however, still, nevertheless, all the same, anyhow
[er ist sehr krank, und doch verliert er nicht den Mut = he is very ill and yet he hasn't lost his courrage],
[er sagte, daß er doch gehen wollte = he said he would go all the same (anyhow)]

5. schließlich, also doch - after all
[ich habe also doch recht = so I'm right after all],
[er hat es doch noch geschaft = he did make it after all]

6. objecting: but
[er hat es doch gesagt = but he did say it],
[es gibt doch noch eine andere Möglichkeit = but there is still another possibility]

7. colloq.: after negated question: yes
[siehst du es nicht? Doch! = don't you see it? Yes, I do!],
[du kommst doch wohl nicht mit? - Doch! = you won't com with us I suppose? - Oh yes I will!

IV. particle: (unstressed often not translated)
8. amplifying:
[du weißt doch, daß ... = surely you know that ...],
[sei doch vernünftig! = do be sensible!],
[es ist doch wunderschön hier! = it is really lovely here!],
[das ist doch Unsinn! = but that's all nonsense!],
[du kommst doch? = you will come, won't you?],
[das kann doch nicht dein Ernst sein? = you don't really mean that, do you?],
[daß sie doch nie pünktlich sein kann! = why on earth can't she ever be on time!]

colloq.:
[komme ich doch gestern nach Hause und ... = just imagine, when I came home yesterday ...],
[er ist doch nicht etwa tot? = he isn't dead, is he?],
[wie war doch gleich sein Name? = what did you say his name was?],
[laß das doch! = don't (do it)!],
[ja doch! = yes, indeed!/of course!/by all means!],
[nicht doch! = a) don't! b) (gewiß nicht) certainly not!]

9. inviting: just, verbal: do ...
[kommen Sie doch herein! = do come in!/why don't you come in?],
[sei doch lieb! (to kids) = be a good boy/girl],
[frag ihn doch! = (just) ask him!/why not ask him!]

10. wishing: if only
[wenn er doch käme! = if only he would come!],
[wenn es doch wahr wäre! = if only it were true!]

11. remembering: as you know
[ich muß doch morgen nach Berlin fahren = as you know I have to go to Berlin tomorrow],
[ich darf doch nichts trinken! = I mustn't drink, you know!]

12. preceding justification: after all, remember?
[ich helfe dir - ich bin doch deine Schwester! = I will help you - after all I'm your sister!]

13. justifying: but
[er hat es doch selbst gesagt! = but he said so himself!]

14. expressing suprise: why
[aber das ist doch Michael! = why, it's Michael!]  
« Last Edit: March 04, 2010, 05:35:34 am by Tsu'roen »
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Offline 'eylan na'viyä

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Re: a word for the german "doch" & "aber"/"sondern"
« Reply #21 on: March 05, 2010, 07:50:21 am »
The Na'vi word should not have the those many multiple meanings of the german version but i think it should not either have only 1 exact meaning.
maybe it should cover something like this too
(E) Now more than ever (D) Jetzt erst recht.
the meaning would depend on context.

Offline eanayo

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Re: a word for the german "doch" & "aber"/"sondern"
« Reply #22 on: March 05, 2010, 10:51:40 am »
Sorry for hijacking this thread a bit, but I've been closely monitoring my German (for the purposes of this forum ;) ) and found two words that may or may not be useful, but don't want to make a dedicated thread.

egalDE - colloquially used to express indifference:
Gib mir etwas zu Essen, egal was.DE - give me something to eat, I don't care what. (just give me anything)
"Cheerios oder Tawtute Flakes?" "Egal."DE - "Cheerios or Tawtute Flakes?" "I don't care / doesn't matter / any"
Egal was du tust...DE - no matter what you do...
Das ist mir egalDE - I don't care
notice the Dative construct in German. Na'vi loves that, srak?

Since this word is of French origin, maybe some Francophone can comment on that, too?

Then, we have a precious little bit from a dialect:
feiDE - used in Bavarian dialects to amplify / emphasize a statement, but also acts a bit like "FYI"

A teacher overreacts and puts the whole class in detention, one of his colleagues might comment:
Das war fei nicht in OrdnungDE - that was really not right. (I'll let you know that and I think you should apologize)

Person A says something, Person B (incorrectly) points out a mistake in Person A's statement. A third person might then comment
Das war fei schon richtigDE - but that was indeed correct. (To let you know, HE was correct and YOU made a mistake)

If you see something very beautiful, you might say
Das ist fei schön!DE - (Oh my!) This is truly beautiful!

You want to let someone know that there is an easier / better way to do something, or let them know that something is actually available to them (e.g. someone is using a hammer instead of a screwdriver):
In der Schublade ist fei ein SchraubendreherDE - FYI, there is a screwdriver in the drawer. (we do have one)

Both of these are used fairly commonly, and might be handy to have. Since fei is not used in standard German, this might even provide a bit of an "exotic" touch. Would be interesting to see if other languages have something similar.

Note that I don't want to "swamp" Na'vi with tiny concepts from all possible languages, so I'm just putting this up as a basis for discussion; if more people think these concepts would be useful, let us put them forward.

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Offline Kì'eyawn

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Re: a word for the german "doch" & "aber"/"sondern"
« Reply #23 on: March 05, 2010, 11:01:30 am »
Ma Aysyal, i definitely agree that Na'vi would benefit from this word fei.  We have ways of expressing this concept using parts of verb constructions in English -- ("I wasn't rude!"  "Yes, you were!"), but as Na'vi has real verb conjugations (instead of English's weird hybrid...verb-things), it seems they would need a separate word used specifically to communicate this sort of...assertion.
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Offline Na'rìghawnu

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Re: a word for the german "doch" & "aber"/"sondern"
« Reply #24 on: March 05, 2010, 12:07:20 pm »
Quote
Then, we have a precious little bit from a dialect:
feiDE - used in Bavarian dialects to amplify / emphasize a statement,

Nice idea to suggest "fei". I thought about it myself, but refrained from it, because it probably is a bit too exotic. It's hard enough to explain to German speakers, what this "fei" is used for, because - as you say - it is a word restricted to the southern part of Germany and isn't understood correctly (and of course not used) by other speakers.

You gave some examples, but the meaning can be summarized to a quite simple concept: You use "fei", when you make a statement, about which you think (or know), that your listener(s) don't know it, but MUST now it. It means, you use it in the sense of "Listen! What I tell you now, is most likely new to you, but I think, that you really should know it."

Take your examples:
A teacher overreacts and puts the whole class in detention, one of his colleagues might comment:
Das war fei nicht in OrdnungDE - that was really not right.
(= It seems to me, that you don't know, that your action was wrong, so I tell you, that it really was. You should know that.)

Person A says something, Person B (incorrectly) points out a mistake in Person A's statement. A third person might then comment
Das war fei schon richtigDE - but that was indeed correct.
(= It seems to me, that you don't know, that the statement of A was correct, so I tell you, that it really was. You should know that.)

If you see something very beautiful, you might say
Das ist fei schön!DE - (Oh my!) This is truly beautiful!
(= You maybe don't recognize, how beautiful this is, but you should! So I point this information out to you.)

You want to let someone know that there is an easier / better way to do something, or let them know that something is actually available to them (e.g. someone is using a hammer instead of a screwdriver):
In der Schublade ist fei ein SchraubendreherDE - FYI, there is a screwdriver in the drawer.
(= It seems to me, that you don't know, that we have got a screwdriver, but you should know it. So I point this fact out to you.)

The Japanese have a related partikel. They add "-yo" to the end of the sentence, to cover the meaning of "fei" quite well, e. g.

Kono tokei wa    takai         desu yo.
This  clock TOP   expansive  is     *yo*

You would e. g. use this sentence, if your friend makes not so nice comments about your clock, e. g. about it's cheep-looking design. To emphasize to him, that the clock is really expansive - a thing he obviously doesn't know, but SHOULD know (in your eyes) - you use "-yo". In the Bavarian dialect this is also a very good example for "fei":

"(Hör gefälligst auf zu lästern.) Die Uhr war fei teuer!" - (Stop mocking my clock!) It was *fei* expansive!


I'd like to see "fei" too in Na'vi, but thinking over my demotivating experiences of teaching this concept to other German speakers, I'm not quite sure, whether it will be understood and used appropriately by speakers of completely different languages. Maybe the Japanese Na'vi-learners will get it right.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2010, 12:10:50 pm by Na'rìghawnu »

Offline Erimeyz

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Re: a word for the german "doch" & "aber"/"sondern"
« Reply #25 on: March 05, 2010, 12:10:23 pm »
Both of these are used fairly commonly, and might be handy to have. Since fei is not used in standard German, this might even provide a bit of an "exotic" touch. Would be interesting to see if other languages have something similar.

I like these!  As an English speaker, they are indeed quite interesting and exotic - just what we want in Na'vi!

Note that I don't want to "swamp" Na'vi with tiny concepts from all possible languages, so I'm just putting this up as a basis for discussion; if more people think these concepts would be useful, let us put them forward.

I think we should swamp K. Pawl with ideas and suggestions!  He'll choose the ones that work best with the existing language (and with each other) and not let them swamp Na'vi itself.  So, yes, I'm all in favor of finding and proposing as many such concepts as possible - the less like English, the better for all!

  - Eri

Offline Erimeyz

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Re: a word for the german "doch" & "aber"/"sondern"
« Reply #26 on: March 05, 2010, 12:13:32 pm »
I'd like to see "fei" too in Na'vi, but thinking over my demotivating experiences of teaching this concept to other German speakers, I'm not quite sure, whether it will be understood and used appropriately by speakers of completely different languages. Maybe the Japanese Na'vi-learners will get it right.

As long as you explain it well enough to Frommer, that's all we need.  He'll decide how much of the idea to include in Na'vi, and he may well modify the concept somewhat to make it easier for non-south-Germany-residents to understand. :)

  - Eri

Offline Na'rìghawnu

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Re: a word for the german "doch" & "aber"/"sondern" & "egal" & "fei"
« Reply #27 on: March 05, 2010, 12:15:36 pm »

Quote
"I wasn't rude!"  "Yes, you were!"

 ;D

Good example of not getting the fei-concept correctly. (No offense, tigermind)
You can't use "fei" to reply to "I wasn't rude" for instance.
Instead you could use it in a sentence like: "You were *fei* rude!"
Meaning: It seems to me, that you don't realize, how rude you were, but you should know it. So I point this out to you.


Offline eanayo

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Re: a word for the german "doch" & "aber"/"sondern"
« Reply #28 on: March 05, 2010, 12:32:16 pm »
You gave some examples, but the meaning can be summarized to a quite simple concept: You use "fei", when you make a statement, about which you think (or know), that your listener(s) don't know it, but MUST now it. It means, you use it in the sense of "Listen! What I tell you now, is most likely new to you, but I think, that you really should know it."

Haha! Irayo for summarizing it. You completely blew my "maybe no-one will notice that I don't have the faintest idea of my own language"-cover ;)

And thanks for the heads up all around!

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Offline Plumps

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Re: a word for the german "doch" & "aber"/"sondern" & "egal" & "fei"
« Reply #29 on: March 05, 2010, 12:36:26 pm »
It's intersting to know that I learn something about my own language by discussion these concepts ;D I had no idea such a particle existed in German.

I think your examples are quite good, ma Na'rìghawnu and I think I got the concept, so others will too. I sure like it! :)

Given the problems people have with the topic marker (including me!) except the ones already familiar with it through other languages, it's again about either use it (and use it wrong), know how to use it (and do it right) or not using it at all (my solution :P )

But as I said - your examples are clear enough, I think

Offline Na'rìghawnu

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Re: a word for the german "doch" & "aber"/"sondern" & "egal" & "fei"
« Reply #30 on: March 05, 2010, 12:41:07 pm »

;D

Herangham! You are welcome, ma Aysyal. I can't even remember how long it took for me (and my friend) to uncover the "real meaning" of "fei". It's quite astonishing, how you sometimes use concepts without even thinking about it's meaning ... but when you have to explain it to others, you start to think. It took a long time to observe the usage of "fei" in many situations and again a long time to summarize the results. (Not even our own heavy dictionarys really *explain* it.) But now we are sure, that we summarized the "essence" of "fei" correctly.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2010, 12:45:14 pm by Na'rìghawnu »

Offline Na'rìghawnu

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Re: a word for the german "doch" & "aber"/"sondern" & "egal" & "fei"
« Reply #31 on: March 05, 2010, 12:44:39 pm »

Quote
Given the problems people have with the topic marker (including me!) except the ones already familiar with it through other languages, it's again about either use it (and use it wrong), know how to use it (and do it right) or not using it at all (my solution)

Don't be afaid, ma Plumps! That there is a topic in the Japanese sentence doesn't mean, that there is also necessary a topical in the Na'vi-sentence. Whether there is a topic or not has nothing to do with the "fei"-concept.


Offline Plumps

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Re: a word for the german "doch" & "aber"/"sondern" & "egal" & "fei"
« Reply #32 on: March 05, 2010, 12:48:04 pm »
Don't be afaid, ma Plumps! That there is a topic in the Japanese sentence doesn't mean, that there is also necessary a topical in the Na'vi-sentence. Whether there is a topic or not has nothing to do with the "fei"-concept.

Thanks ;) I thought as much ... but the usage seemed a bit topic-marker-y to me ;) At least a solution of how it could be inserted into a sentence

Offline Na'rìghawnu

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Re: a word for the german "doch" & "aber"/"sondern" & "egal" & "fei"
« Reply #33 on: March 05, 2010, 01:03:49 pm »
Well ... I'll give some Na'vi examples implementing "fei" (to show it, I declare "fei" to be Navi *fay'   ;))

(1) Neytiril yerikit tolaron. - Neytiri hunded a hexapede. (Just a statement, nothing to point out.)
(1*) Neytiril *fay' yerikit tolaron. - It seems to me, that you don't know it (maybe you even won't believe it), so I think, it's important for you, to get this news: Neytiri hunted a hexapede!

(2) Fpole' ayngal oer a 'upxaret polähem oel. - I have received the message you send to me.
(2*) Fpole' ayngal oer a 'upxaret *fay' polähem oel. - You may think that I didn't receive your message [maybe, because you didn't hear from me for a longer time], so I think, I should really let you know, that I indeed received it.

(3) Oe new kivä. - I want to go.
(3*) Oe *fay' new kivä. - It seems to me, that you don't know it, so I really want you to inform, that I really want to go (my wife is waiting already for hours with the dinner.)

So, I hope you see ... no necessary connection between "fei" and topical.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2010, 01:09:48 pm by Na'rìghawnu »

Offline Plumps

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Re: a word for the german "doch" & "aber"/"sondern" & "egal" & "fei"
« Reply #34 on: March 05, 2010, 01:16:00 pm »
Yes, thanks for the clear-up :)
I didn't see it as 'replacing' the topic but rather that it could be dealt with via an affix - that was all I meant ;) But given the fact that it can refer to a whole sentence a single word (conjunction-like) would be better ... or something along the lines of san ... sìk that would enclose the relavent part.

As I said, I think it would be a great concept and give Na'vi a new shape of richness.

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Re: a word for the german "doch" & "aber"/"sondern" & "egal" & "fei"
« Reply #35 on: March 05, 2010, 06:36:06 pm »
I'd want this fei too. It might seem difficult to get first, but if you try to imagine how many different words (and stress patterns) you need to use in English to cover the same concept, you'll no doubt see that it is making life easier, for real.



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Offline Kì'eyawn

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Re: a word for the german "doch" & "aber"/"sondern" & "egal" & "fei"
« Reply #36 on: March 05, 2010, 11:01:36 pm »

Quote
"I wasn't rude!"  "Yes, you were!"

 ;D

Good example of not getting the fei-concept correctly. (No offense, tigermind)
You can't use "fei" to reply to "I wasn't rude" for instance.
Instead you could use it in a sentence like: "You were *fei* rude!"
Meaning: It seems to me, that you don't realize, how rude you were, but you should know it. So I point this out to you.

Hmm... interesting.  No offense taken, ma 'eylan.  I like learning about language-concepts that are unfamiliar to me--especially when i have trouble wrapping my head around them ;)
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Offline Na'rìghawnu

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Re: a word for the german "doch" & "aber"/"sondern" & "egal" & "fei"
« Reply #37 on: March 06, 2010, 12:25:13 am »
@tigermind

Now, when I think it over, in your example - as said - "fei" couldn't be used, but you could use the discussed "doch" here!

A: "I wasn't rude"
B: "Doch!"

Meaning:
A is on the standpoint, that he behaved not rudely, expressing it in a negative sentence.
B thinks different, so contradicting the negative statement of A using "doch".

As said, no "fei" here, but "doch" will fit in perfectly.

@Plumps
Quote
I didn't see it as 'replacing' the topic but rather that it could be dealt with via an affix

I'd rather make it a sentence final particle, like "ko" or "srak" ... this is also like the Japanese do it with their "yo". Seems rational to me: First you make the statement (sentence), than you give it this special touch of "it seems to me, that you didn't realize this, but I think it's important, so I point it out to you". Of course, a sentence starting particle would do the same thing. I would avoid making it a particle thrown into the sentence (like "fei" indeed *is*), but rather put the Na'vi-equivalent either to the beginning or to the end of the sentence.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2010, 12:34:36 am by Na'rìghawnu »

Offline eanayo

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Re: a word for the german "doch" & "aber"/"sondern" & "egal" & "fei"
« Reply #38 on: March 07, 2010, 03:30:54 am »
I've been thinking about my proposal of egal again, and was wondering:
What if we had - in addition to an (adjective?) equivalent of egal - a prefix, which is the logical opposite to fì-? So while fì- acts like "this" and is used to indicate that the speaker means a certain thing/time/whatever, a hypothetical opposite could be used to indicate indifference (but not uncertainty or lack of knowledge), just a bit like the English any- or German irgend-.

Let me try and give some examples (I love my examples, they cover for lacking explanations :P )
(For the purpose of demonstration, I'll use *txene [adj] for egal and *txe- as the corresponding prefix)

"krrpe ngal new futa oe kivä?" "*txekrr or *txene"
When do you want me to go?" "anytime (I don't care when, it's up to you) / egal"
but not anytime as in "he could be here anytime (I don't know when he will be here)"

*txetsengene kä!
Go anywhere! (I don't care where you go, I'll let you decide, it doesn't matter where you go)
but not anywhere as in "he could be anywhere (I don't know where he is)"

oeru *txeswizawit tìng.
Give me an arrow (any arrow, I don't care which one). as an opposite to
oeru swizawit tìng.
Give me this arrow (the one I'm pointing at)

While Na'vi in principle doesn't make a distinction between the arrow and an arrow, this construct can be used to emphasize that it really doesn't matter which arrow I'm talking about.

Just the things that come to one's mind on a Sunday morning... ;)

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