Poll

Which color scheme do we send to Frommer?

abi's scheme
1 (4.8%)
`Eylan's second scheme
11 (52.4%)
Wm's scheme
9 (42.9%)
abi's scheme
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 21

Voting closed: March 11, 2010, 11:46:36 am

Author Topic: The Color Palette Vote!  (Read 3639 times)

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Offline wm.annis

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The Color Palette Vote!
« on: March 09, 2010, 11:46:36 am »
Note that Frommer may completely ignore us, and come with with his own scheme.  As a linguist, he'll know about all the interesting issues related how different human languages do this.  But we have to give him something.

Scheme one (from `Eylan Ayfalulukanä):
 red
 orange
 yellow
 green
 blue
 indigo
 violet
 black, grey, white, brown

Scheme two (from `Eylan Ayfalulukanä):
 white, gray, black
 yellow
 orange
 red
 magenta
 cyan
 green
 brown
 blue
 violet

Scheme Three (from wm.annis):
 red-orange-brown
 yellow-green
 forest-green
 turquoise (or cyan, if you must) (ikran color!)
 purple
 black
 white
 "chalky" modifier

Scheme Four (from abi):
 white/red/yellow
 blue
 green
 ultraviolet
 black

Edit: I suppose a link to the discussion would be helpful: http://forum.learnnavi.org/vocabulary-expansion/topic-colors/.

« Last Edit: March 09, 2010, 11:51:47 am by wm.annis »
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Offline tsrräfkxätu

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Re: The Color Palette Vote!
« Reply #1 on: March 09, 2010, 03:07:43 pm »
I apologize for the potentially stooopid question, but are colors written in one line to be represented by a single word? Or what's the idea? I've read through the associated thread, but still don't get this.
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Offline Txur’Itan

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Re: The Color Palette Vote!
« Reply #2 on: March 09, 2010, 03:13:04 pm »
I apologize for the potentially stooopid question, but are colors written in one line to be represented by a single word? Or what's the idea? I've read through the associated thread, but still don't get this.

There are many ways to interpret or represent terms of colors.  Annis is having us vote on the above systems to send to Paul Frommer to have a system of Na'vi rules for generating terms for colors or for naming colors.
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Offline tsrräfkxätu

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Re: The Color Palette Vote!
« Reply #3 on: March 09, 2010, 04:09:41 pm »
Yeah, I got that. :D What I don't understand is what this means: "red-orange-brown." First I thought these colors would be assigned a single word (presumably because the Na’vi can't/don't differentiate between them), but this had me confused " black, grey, white, brown" because I don't see how black and white could be the same color.
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Offline Txur’Itan

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Re: The Color Palette Vote!
« Reply #4 on: March 09, 2010, 04:14:40 pm »
Yeah, I got that. :D What I don't understand is what this means: "red-orange-brown." First I thought these colors would be assigned a single word (presumably because the Na’vi can't/don't differentiate between them), but this had me confused " black, grey, white, brown" because I don't see how black and white could be the same color.

More or less some colors may seem similar, and for that they may have similar or the same names, if only separated by intensity, or maybe not separated at all.
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Offline wm.annis

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Re: The Color Palette Vote!
« Reply #5 on: March 09, 2010, 05:19:52 pm »
I apologize for the potentially stooopid question, but are colors written in one line to be represented by a single word?

Sorry, I didn't explain my notation.

Commas means separate color words.  Dashed colors, yellow-green, mean a single color word.
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Offline wm.annis

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Re: The Color Palette Vote!
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2010, 12:49:52 pm »
Well, it sure looks like Karyu Pawl has worked out the color spectrum already (red-orange, yellow, blue-green, black, white).  And there's a word for color.  There seems little reason to suggest more at this time.
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Offline Skxawng

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Re: The Color Palette Vote!
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2010, 02:34:30 pm »
but damnit, I've got to know how to say 'beige'!


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Offline HTML_Earth

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Re: The Color Palette Vote!
« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2010, 03:02:10 pm »
Well, it sure looks like Karyu Pawl has worked out the color spectrum already (red-orange, yellow, blue-green, black, white).  And there's a word for color.  There seems little reason to suggest more at this time.

Source? Did he say the actual words?

Offline tsrräfkxätu

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Re: The Color Palette Vote!
« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2010, 03:30:30 pm »
but damnit, I've got to know how to say 'beige'!

Dark/dirty white? ::)
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Offline 'eylan na'viyä

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Re: The Color Palette Vote!
« Reply #10 on: March 11, 2010, 03:46:33 pm »
Dark/dirty white? ::)

is there a way to express Dark/dirty or has it been suggested?

Offline tsrräfkxätu

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Re: The Color Palette Vote!
« Reply #11 on: March 11, 2010, 04:19:50 pm »
Not yet, I think. But they're on the list. :D I simply meant to indicate that beige could be considered as a shade of white, and that all is not lost. :D
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Offline 'eylan na'viyä

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Re: The Color Palette Vote!
« Reply #12 on: March 11, 2010, 04:46:52 pm »
 ;D  i guesed that, its just that im starting to get used to see possible suggestions everywhere  ;D

Offline `Eylan Ayfalulukanä

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Re: The Color Palette Vote!
« Reply #13 on: March 12, 2010, 02:45:11 am »
Well, it sure looks like Karyu Pawl has worked out the color spectrum already (red-orange, yellow, blue-green, black, white).  And there's a word for color.  There seems little reason to suggest more at this time.

To perceive the range of colors you specify here (assuming that Na`vi vision is similar to ours) it would also require that the other (additive and subtractive) colors also be perceivable.
If Kayru Pawl has a specific term for red-orange and for green-blue, those two would be examples of the the 'specific colors' I mentioned in the post where I proposed the additive-subtractive color scheme. Simply add these two colors to the additive-subtractive color scheme. The other colors mentioned already match. Thus, you would have (I have given examples of where these colors might be found in the Na`vi world:

red - blood, bioluminescence
blue=ean Na`vi skin color, bioluminescence, shades of planets and moons in sky
yellow = rim sunlight, flowers, some foliage, flames
green - foliage, predominant color of bioluminescence
orange - sunrise, sunset, flowers, flame
cyan - part of the Ikran coloration is a cyan shade. If the blue-green Pawl is intending is a light blue-green,
      then it is cyan.
magenta - bioluminescence
purple - flowers, bioluminescence, darker skin color is almost purple.
red-orange (Pawl) Leonoptrex color
blue-green (Pawl) dark shade assumed here, see note on cyan. - foliage, flowers
brown - stems, tree trunks, tubers, soil?
black (Pawl) - soil, ashes
gray -  rocks and minerals, some plant parts
white (Pawl) - full sunlight, luminescence of sacred trees
(ultraviolet?)

Modifiers can be included to describe a dark or light shade of any color. Although modular, we use this scheme in our language, and I suspect so many other languages.

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Offline wm.annis

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Re: The Color Palette Vote!
« Reply #14 on: March 12, 2010, 07:43:07 am »
red-orange (Pawl) Leonoptrex color
blue-green (Pawl) dark shade assumed here, see note on cyan. - foliage, flowers

These are not blended colors, but color ranges.  The definitions in the master list are "red, orange" and "blue, green."
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Offline `Eylan Ayfalulukanä

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Re: The Color Palette Vote!
« Reply #15 on: March 12, 2010, 03:36:32 pm »
red-orange (Pawl) Leonoptrex color
blue-green (Pawl) dark shade assumed here, see note on cyan. - foliage, flowers

These are not blended colors, but color ranges.  The definitions in the master list are "red, orange" and "blue, green."

Since yellow is already defined, and I assume you also included black and white, that gives:

red
yellow
orange
green
blue
black
white

The only thing then really missing that cannot be linguistically derived from the above list is brown. Brown is a subtractive result of mixing the above colors, and is extremely common in the natural world.

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Offline wm.annis

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Re: The Color Palette Vote!
« Reply #16 on: March 12, 2010, 03:56:29 pm »
The only thing then really missing that cannot be linguistically derived from the above list is brown. Brown is a subtractive result of mixing the above colors, and is extremely common in the natural world.

I've cleaned up the color entry in the list to ask for brown, and hint that idioms to qualify color words would be useful.
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Offline `Eylan Ayfalulukanä

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Re: The Color Palette Vote!
« Reply #17 on: March 12, 2010, 04:10:28 pm »
Thanks. I also saw that K. Pawl has given us a few color words in another thread, and I think your choices will help clarify the meaning of Pawl's words (And those words are being added to my personal learning vocabulary 'short list'). Clarity on what a color word means is very important because I could never in a million words, describe a color to you unless it could be clearly related to a visual experience you have already had. (And I doubt that any Na`vi would know what a 'CIE Chromaticity chart' is  ;) )

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Offline roger

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Re: The Color Palette Vote!
« Reply #18 on: March 12, 2010, 04:31:04 pm »
It would be nice to have a distinction between dark grue (ean) and light grue (cyan, turquoise), kinda like what Russian has, so that neither translates English 'blue' or 'green', but still lumping English red, orange, brown, and pink together. Wouldn't it be rather boring if Na'vi matched English? And complex systems like English tend to come in with a manufacturing economy and artificial dyes. In my grandmother's day, "orange" was not a color, it was a fruit. "Orangish" only entered the language ca. 1950. I have an old (but not that old!) color wheel for teaching color mixing in beginning painting classes: it has five named colors. What we call "orange" was "yellowish red". And before that, "pink" was a flower (now 'carnation'), "purple" was a dye, and "violet" another flower (and for many of us it still is, rather than a color). But it would be cool to have UV!

Offline Txur’Itan

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Re: The Color Palette Vote!
« Reply #19 on: March 12, 2010, 04:40:48 pm »
It would be nice to have a distinction between dark grue (ean) and light grue (cyan, turquoise), kinda like what Russian has, so that neither translates English 'blue' or 'green', but still lumping English red, orange, brown, and pink together. Wouldn't it be rather boring if Na'vi matched English? And complex systems like English tend to come in with a manufacturing economy and artificial dyes. In my grandmother's day, "orange" was not a color, it was a fruit. "Orangish" only entered the language ca. 1950. I have an old (but not that old!) color wheel for teaching color mixing in beginning painting classes: it has five named colors. What we call "orange" was "yellowish red". And before that, "pink" was a flower (now 'carnation'), "purple" was a dye, and "violet" another flower (and for many of us it still is, rather than a color). But it would be cool to have UV!

Very true.  There are plants, animals, Na'vi with many colors on them.

The ASG refers to animals seeing in the infrared with their second eye sets.  I wonder if this is combined in the Na'vi Eye, this would produce color names that humans can not see, but Na'vi would have names for them, or descriptions which matched what a creature's or plant's glowing colors looked like at night.
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