Author Topic: Topic: Colors  (Read 1701 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline 'itan Na'rìngyä

  • Ketuwong
  • *
  • Posts: 16
  • Karma: 1
Topic: Colors
« on: March 03, 2010, 12:38:00 am »
Words for colors (all priority A), as well as the word "color" itself (priority C)

Proposed Na'vi colors:

White, perhaps synonymous with bright or light
Black, perhaps synonymous with dark
Green
Yellow
Blue
Brown
Purple-ish, possibly including near-UV colors
A totally UV color, invisible to humans
Grey, pink, orange are optional *
Possibly have no word for red **

* according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universalism_and_relativism_of_color_terminology these colors would be strictly optional colors, depending on how developed Frommer / Cameron wish the Na'vi colors to be.

** I deliberately left out red, which is taking some artistic liberty of my own. But it's fair to assume that if the Na'vi see UV, they may not be able to see red or even other longer-wavelength colors like orange. Perhaps orange is as far as Na'vi eyesight goes, but I feel like that should fall under yellow since, if red (which is a primary color) is gone, then perhaps orange would just melt into yellow. Also, the "fully UV" color I mention above would probably end up being a third "primary color" for the Na'vi, even though the language needn't reflect that idea.

As for why I picked this (and some alternative choices from others), the following thread where we were discussing color earlier has some information. Basically, the Na'vi see color differently and in a different part of the spectrum than humans, so we conjecture. Since the Na'vi can possible see into UV I included a couple of those considerations. Also, linked in the following thread is a Wikipedia article about color universality, which influenced the list a great deal.


See this thread for previous discussion: http://forum.learnnavi.org/vocabulary-expansion/first-draft-of-my-list/


Offline 'itan Na'rìngyä

  • Ketuwong
  • *
  • Posts: 16
  • Karma: 1
Re: Topic: Colors
« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2010, 12:45:08 am »
This could also have interested plot implications. Like, if a Na'vi were to watch a computer monitor or TV screen, which uses red, green, and blue pixels to make color images (even black-and-white images), the image would appear different to them!

You can try this at home: if you have a component video feed of some sort (Y-Pb-Pr), try watching it without the Pr (red) channel plugged in! This won't be entirely accurate, though, since the Y (luminance) signal contains some information about how Pr affects the rest of the picture, but you'll get the idea.


Another example, perhaps the humans might use bright UV light to blind the Na'vi during a battle without affecting their own eyesight. Or something.

Offline 'eylan na'viyä

  • Omatikaya
  • ****
  • Posts: 447
  • Karma: 10
Re: Topic: Colors
« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2010, 02:53:33 am »
wether the wavelength band is similar to human or slightly different, there might be also differences in the number and sensitivity of the photoreceptors.
this might also lead to different color experiences

Offline Nyx

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 1888
  • Karma: 56
  • Eywìng te Eana Txon'ite
Re: Topic: Colors
« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2010, 07:04:05 am »
** I deliberately left out red, which is taking some artistic liberty of my own. But it's fair to assume that if the Na'vi see UV, they may not be able to see red or even other longer-wavelength colors like orange. Perhaps orange is as far as Na'vi eyesight goes, but I feel like that should fall under yellow since, if red (which is a primary color) is gone, then perhaps orange would just melt into yellow. Also, the "fully UV" color I mention above would probably end up being a third "primary color" for the Na'vi, even though the language needn't reflect that idea.

If they do see UV, that doesn't have to mean that they don't see red. They could have a wider range, rather than just a shifted one.

Besides, I want the word for red ^^

But assuming that they don't see red, they could still see orange. In terms of wavelength red has nothing do to with orange, apart from being just next to it. And going on from this with not seeing red but having another primary colour, as in, a sensor for a different colour, that would have a much greater impact than just not seeing red. All colours might be different then.

Offline 'eylan na'viyä

  • Omatikaya
  • ****
  • Posts: 447
  • Karma: 10
Re: Topic: Colors
« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2010, 07:20:25 am »
All colours might be different then.
if you want to be exact its very unlikely that the light-receptors have exactly the same sensitivity curve. so all "colors" must look a little different. but the environment usually doesnt send out monochromatic light. because of that the recognized difference would not be that big. most of the image creation happens in the brain. eg: humans colors as a gapless band from red to violett, but in reality its the input of 3 receptortypes with overlapping sensitivity curves

Offline Nyx

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 1888
  • Karma: 56
  • Eywìng te Eana Txon'ite
Re: Topic: Colors
« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2010, 08:02:53 am »
All colours might be different then.
if you want to be exact its very unlikely that the light-receptors have exactly the same sensitivity curve. so all "colors" must look a little different. but the environment usually doesnt send out monochromatic light. because of that the recognized difference would not be that big. most of the image creation happens in the brain. eg: humans colors as a gapless band from red to violett, but in reality its the input of 3 receptortypes with overlapping sensitivity curves

I know. And who's to say we all see colour the same? But it's still possible to agree on words. I mean, if you see something as yellow and I see it as blue, we could call that colour "cookie dough" and still always know what we're talking about. I mostly just wanted to say that I hope there is a word for red.. and then I got carried away :P

Offline pbhead

  • 'Eveng
  • ***
  • Posts: 262
  • Karma: 2
Re: Topic: Colors
« Reply #6 on: March 03, 2010, 08:15:38 am »
Hell's gate is preety gray... same with alot of rocks and such... even if grey is "the color of the skypeople" or something, i think we need a "grey"


Offline 'eylan na'viyä

  • Omatikaya
  • ****
  • Posts: 447
  • Karma: 10
Re: Topic: Colors
« Reply #7 on: March 03, 2010, 08:41:14 am »
All colours might be different then.
if you want to be exact its very unlikely that the light-receptors have exactly the same sensitivity curve. so all "colors" must look a little different. but the environment usually doesnt send out monochromatic light. because of that the recognized difference would not be that big. most of the image creation happens in the brain. eg: humans colors as a gapless band from red to violett, but in reality its the input of 3 receptortypes with overlapping sensitivity curves

I know. And who's to say we all see colour the same? But it's still possible to agree on words. I mean, if you see something as yellow and I see it as blue, we could call that colour "cookie dough" and still always know what we're talking about. I mostly just wanted to say that I hope there is a word for red.. and then I got carried away :P

thats what i wanted to say. the colors of specific objects might look similar.

besides that their elementarycolors can be different and red maybe has the "priority" of (E) cyan/(D) türkis.
and the defined red does not necessarily be the "exact" red as we know it, maybe its a bit more yellow

Offline Nyx

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 1888
  • Karma: 56
  • Eywìng te Eana Txon'ite
Re: Topic: Colors
« Reply #8 on: March 03, 2010, 09:02:23 am »
All colours might be different then.
if you want to be exact its very unlikely that the light-receptors have exactly the same sensitivity curve. so all "colors" must look a little different. but the environment usually doesnt send out monochromatic light. because of that the recognized difference would not be that big. most of the image creation happens in the brain. eg: humans colors as a gapless band from red to violett, but in reality its the input of 3 receptortypes with overlapping sensitivity curves

I know. And who's to say we all see colour the same? But it's still possible to agree on words. I mean, if you see something as yellow and I see it as blue, we could call that colour "cookie dough" and still always know what we're talking about. I mostly just wanted to say that I hope there is a word for red.. and then I got carried away :P

thats what i wanted to say. the colors of specific objects might look similar.

besides that their elementarycolors can be different and red maybe has the "priority" of (E) cyan/(D) türkis.
and the defined red does not necessarily be the "exact" red as we know it, maybe its a bit more yellow
Yep. We mostly need to know how to express ourselves, but it doesn't have to be an exact translation as long as it gets the meaning across as much as possible.

Hell's gate is preety gray... same with alot of rocks and such... even if grey is "the color of the skypeople" or something, i think we need a "grey"
It would be hilarious if the word for "grey" also has that as a near literal meaning. But seriously, varying levels of light and dark would be nice to know too.

Offline 'eylan na'viyä

  • Omatikaya
  • ****
  • Posts: 447
  • Karma: 10
Re: Topic: Colors
« Reply #9 on: March 03, 2010, 09:12:44 am »
Yep. We mostly need to know how to express ourselves, but it doesn't have to be an exact translation as long as it gets the meaning across as much as possible.
thats true, but these are things that should be cleared BEFORE creating all the words

Offline Na'rìghawnu

  • Tute
  • ***
  • Posts: 352
  • Karma: 22
Re: Topic: Colors
« Reply #10 on: March 03, 2010, 12:03:39 pm »
Quote
Green
...
Blue

There are earthly languages, which don't make a clear difference between some green and blue colors, e. g. Japanese, where "aoi" is used normally for blue, but some other things are "aoi" too, e. g. the green traffic light (which also in Japan isn't really blue) or fresh young plants, vegetable or fruits (e. g. apples, grass, rice plants etc. ... they are all "aoi"). But on the other hand they have got "kon" for a special black-blue color, which is clearly distinct from "aoi", although an English-speaker would consider it as a dark variant of "blue". Also "red" and "dark-red" are seen as completely different colors, not as more or less dark variants of the same color.

What I want to say is, that - even if the Na'vi perceive the same wavelengths like humans - they may distribute them to other groups of colours than us, so that e. g. the lengths, which make up two colors for e. g. English-speakers, are completely (or partially) put together to one color, while on the other hand, lenghts, which are put together to one English color, maybe make up different colors in the Na'vi-language.

« Last Edit: March 03, 2010, 12:08:20 pm by Na'rìghawnu »

Offline Lance R. Casey

  • Ikran Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 948
  • se Sweden
  • Karma: 57
  • Man cenuva métim' andúnë?
Re: Topic: Colors
« Reply #11 on: March 03, 2010, 02:21:16 pm »
If I can be allowed to draw another example from Klingon (I do like my Klingon), there we have four (or two, depending on how you count) primary colors handled by stative verbs:

qIj be black
chIS be white
SuD be blue/green/yellow
Doq be orange/red

To discriminate between objects belonging to either of the latter two categories, a combination with wov be light, Hurgh be dark and/or the emphatic suffix -qu' can be used. For a quick reference, see here.

So what do I want to say with this, then? Only that I'm also hoping for an alien quality to Na'vi color perception! :)

// Lance R. Casey

Offline Na'rìghawnu

  • Tute
  • ***
  • Posts: 352
  • Karma: 22
Re: Topic: Colors
« Reply #12 on: March 06, 2010, 07:53:29 am »
Do we know, what's the color of the blood of the Na'vi?
If it were - say - green, this color could be just "bloodish" ... adding an exotic touch.
Or, if it were blue, the noun "blood" could be something related to "ean" ...
« Last Edit: March 06, 2010, 07:55:45 am by Na'rìghawnu »

Offline wm.annis

  • Olo'eyktan Anawm
  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 3074
  • Karma: 143
  • Translate the meaning, not the words!
Re: Topic: Colors
« Reply #13 on: March 06, 2010, 07:57:33 am »
Do we know, what's the color of the blood of the Na'vi?

Red, I'm pretty sure.
'Awa lì'fya ke tam kawkrr.
A Na'vi Reference Grammar

Offline Na'rìghawnu

  • Tute
  • ***
  • Posts: 352
  • Karma: 22
Re: Topic: Colors
« Reply #14 on: March 06, 2010, 08:01:03 am »

Ok, than "red" and "blood" could be related words.

Offline Nyx

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 1888
  • Karma: 56
  • Eywìng te Eana Txon'ite
Re: Topic: Colors
« Reply #15 on: March 06, 2010, 08:12:08 am »

Ok, than "red" and "blood" could be related words.

That would ROCK ;D

Offline wm.annis

  • Olo'eyktan Anawm
  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 3074
  • Karma: 143
  • Translate the meaning, not the words!
Re: Topic: Colors
« Reply #16 on: March 06, 2010, 08:20:01 am »
Color words are often related to or derived from other objects.

We should probably pick a set of color words we agree would be very useful in Na'vi, and let Frommer (or Frommer with Cameron) decide some of the boundaries.  Frommer's PhD in linguistics will make him acutely aware that different languages split up the spectrum differently.

Some suggestions —
  • red (related to blood?)
  • white
  • green (whatever it's relationship to ean and rim)
  • black
  • grey (might include color, grey-brown and grey-green-blue are common)

Browns, oranges and turquoise range colors seem like they might be good, too.  Whatever Cameron says about Na'vi visual perception might play here, though the fact that avatars adjusted without apparent problems, their range may closely approximate human (let's face it — Na'vi are just Cameron's conception of a particular vision of humanity — he says as much — not deeply alien at all).

Qualities of color (Pandora, after all, glows) —
  • shining, sparkling, reflective
  • dull, dark (not reflecting)
  • glowing (of bioluminescence)
  • dark (not glowing)

Words related to saturation ("light red" vs. "dark red") might be useful, but seem class C or even D to me.
'Awa lì'fya ke tam kawkrr.
A Na'vi Reference Grammar

Offline Lance R. Casey

  • Ikran Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 948
  • se Sweden
  • Karma: 57
  • Man cenuva métim' andúnë?
Re: Topic: Colors
« Reply #17 on: March 06, 2010, 08:29:36 am »
Once again I am reminded of Klingon; apart from what was previously mentioned one can describe specific colors by comparing with objects associated with that hue:

Doq HIvje' the cup is orange/red
Doq HIvje' 'ej Qaj wuS rur the cup is Doq and resembles kradge lips (kradge is a Klingon animal the lips of which are a particular shade of brown: "the cup is brown")
Doq HIvje' 'ej beqpuj rur the cup is Doq and resembles bekpuj (bekpuj is a mineral that is bright orange: "the cup is orange")

// Lance R. Casey

Offline 'eylan na'viyä

  • Omatikaya
  • ****
  • Posts: 447
  • Karma: 10
Re: Topic: Colors
« Reply #18 on: March 06, 2010, 09:47:49 am »
Whatever Cameron says about Na'vi visual perception might play here, though the fact that avatars adjusted without apparent problems, their range may closely approximate human
i dont think a greater visual range would be that a big problem for avatars. the human brain is quite adoptable with such things. most of the image is being created in the brain. Maybe you need some training before beeing able to make a destinction between blue/violet and eg: nearUV. it seemed to me that this might have happened when neytiri threw away the torch.
...<it's going to get a bit off-topic, so i stop here>
I just wanted to say that it is not necessarily unlikely.

we should just watch out to ask in a way that leaves the space open for eventualy existing other colors

Offline wm.annis

  • Olo'eyktan Anawm
  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 3074
  • Karma: 143
  • Translate the meaning, not the words!
Re: Topic: Colors
« Reply #19 on: March 06, 2010, 11:49:56 am »
we should just watch out to ask in a way that leaves the space open for eventualy existing other colors

Absolutely, but we need to make some sort of decisions about what to ask Frommer, at least to give him a starting point.  ;)
'Awa lì'fya ke tam kawkrr.
A Na'vi Reference Grammar

 

Become LearnNavi's friend on Facebook Follow LearnNavi on Twitter! Watch LearnNavi's videos on YouTube

SMF 2.0.15 | SMF © 2017, Simple Machines
Privacy Policy
| XHTML | RSS | WAP2 | Site Rules

LearnNavi is not affiliated with the official Avatar website,
James Cameron, or the Twentieth Century-Fox Film Corporation.
All trademarks and servicemarks are the properties of their respective owners.
Images in the LearnNavi.org Forums and Gallery may not be used without permission.

LearnNavi Affiliates:
ToS

LearnNavi is the community to learn Na'vi, the Avatar Language
"A place where real friendships are made." -Paul Frommer

AvatarMeet | Learn Na'vi Forum | Learn Na'vi Wiki | Na'viteri

LearnNavi